40k mark broken !
Discussion
Scuffers said:
by all means, but improve the product before maxing the price.....
if you look at their sales for the last 10+ years, they have been steadily getting worse, why do you think this is?
Well I'd guess that if you look at their sales for the last 10+ years, they have been steadily getting worse, why do you think this is?
1. Elises have proven to be pretty long lived, so there is a very healthy second hand market
2. The lead they had when the Elise first launched has been eroded by the competition
3. The exclusivity of the Elise has reduced, and the model is no longer seen as the 'hot new thing'
4. Something to do with the economy
As for 'improving the product before maxing the price', you're suggesting that they perfect building a 50K car by hand stitching leather and giving it away half price? That doesn't seem a particularly convincing business model to me.
Tuna said:
Scuffers said:
by all means, but improve the product before maxing the price.....
if you look at their sales for the last 10+ years, they have been steadily getting worse, why do you think this is?
Well I'd guess that if you look at their sales for the last 10+ years, they have been steadily getting worse, why do you think this is?
1. Elises have proven to be pretty long lived, so there is a very healthy second hand market
2. The lead they had when the Elise first launched has been eroded by the competition
3. The exclusivity of the Elise has reduced, and the model is no longer seen as the 'hot new thing'
4. Something to do with the economy
As for 'improving the product before maxing the price', you're suggesting that they perfect building a 50K car by hand stitching leather and giving it away half price? That doesn't seem a particularly convincing business model to me.
it's now so far away from the original concept, it's not exactly surprising is it?
The Elise market is saturated, combine that with the increased cost of the raw materials it's not surprising that the RRP has needed to creep up. The Evora isn't exactly expensive at £50k as it's in the next market segment up. Whether or not it's good value is down to the individual signing the cheque. On the whole, those who have taken the plunge seem pleased with their choice.
But take heart that Lotus has been making a £50k car since 1989 and it always sold steadily, right up to its eventual demise in 2004. It's not new territory for them.
But take heart that Lotus has been making a £50k car since 1989 and it always sold steadily, right up to its eventual demise in 2004. It's not new territory for them.
GKP said:
The Elise market is saturated, combine that with the increased cost of the raw materials it's not surprising that the RRP has needed to creep up. The Evora isn't exactly expensive at £50k as it's in the next market segment up. Whether or not it's good value is down to the individual signing the cheque. On the whole, those who have taken the plunge seem pleased with their choice.
But take heart that Lotus has been making a £50k car since 1989 and it always sold steadily, right up to its eventual demise in 2004. It's not new territory for them.
DISAGREE..But take heart that Lotus has been making a £50k car since 1989 and it always sold steadily, right up to its eventual demise in 2004. It's not new territory for them.
price crept up because of the (stupid) changes they kept making and the arrogance that they though they could.
as for making £50K cars, 15 years ago you could get away with making cars with questionable quality/reliability/warrentee's, those days are long gone.
The Evora started at £60K (not sure what you can buy a new one for now?), but ignoring that, for a car that was hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, it's been a total sales flop, you can argue it whatever way you like, the numbers are just not there.
These days there is no way you can get away with questionable build, cheap materials, etc. and then expect to charge big money for it.
At that's exactly why Bahar is pushing for a move upmarket in the manufacturing process, including outsourcing the construction of various componets of the new models. The 'quality' issues are well known about and are being worked on. There are already a number of revisions which address the points raised by ravon above.
It's a different regime now with different values being applied to output. It's pointless judging them on past products and assuming the future cars will be the same. The current management are well aware of the need to up their game but are hampered by the present product line-up and its inherent construction requirements. The new cars will allow a clean-sheet appproach to manufacturing and all the advantages that will give to line workers and owners alike.
It's not like they don't listen and are more than willing to improve the cars where possible.
It's a different regime now with different values being applied to output. It's pointless judging them on past products and assuming the future cars will be the same. The current management are well aware of the need to up their game but are hampered by the present product line-up and its inherent construction requirements. The new cars will allow a clean-sheet appproach to manufacturing and all the advantages that will give to line workers and owners alike.
It's not like they don't listen and are more than willing to improve the cars where possible.
Scuffers said:
DISAGREE..
price crept up because of the (stupid) changes they kept making and the arrogance that they though they could.
You mean like meeting changes in legislation, improving the manufacturing process and quality control (part of the VX220 deal) and responding to the many people who complained it was too hardcore? I'm not sure what product you imagine they could sell. Strip it down and go more hardcore and you end up in a tiny niche which is saturated with S1 Elises that make cracking weekend/track day fun cars. Pad it out and soften the user experience and you increase the market, but also the cost. The Elise was never capable of being made at MX-5 economies.price crept up because of the (stupid) changes they kept making and the arrogance that they though they could.
Scuffers said:
as for making £50K cars, 15 years ago you could get away with making cars with questionable quality/reliability/warrentee's, those days are long gone.
I'm not sure 15 years ago Lotus were producing unreliable cars?Scuffers said:
The Evora started at £60K (not sure what you can buy a new one for now?), but ignoring that,
Yes, best ignore that, as it's wrong and the Porsche comes off very badly in comparison. The Evora started at £48K (now £50 I believe), and if you fully load it you can add about £13K to that. The equivalent Porsche starts slightly lower and you can put nearly £30K on it with the legendary Porsche "what, you want comfortable seats?" options list.Scuffers said:
These days there is no way you can get away with questionable build, cheap materials, etc. and then expect to charge big money for it.
You seriously believe that's true of the Evora? Oh well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.Tuna said:
Scuffers said:
DISAGREE..
price crept up because of the (stupid) changes they kept making and the arrogance that they though they could.
You mean like meeting changes in legislation, improving the manufacturing process and quality control (part of the VX220 deal) and responding to the many people who complained it was too hardcore? I'm not sure what product you imagine they could sell. Strip it down and go more hardcore and you end up in a tiny niche which is saturated with S1 Elises that make cracking weekend/track day fun cars. Pad it out and soften the user experience and you increase the market, but also the cost. The Elise was never capable of being made at MX-5 economies.price crept up because of the (stupid) changes they kept making and the arrogance that they though they could.
Scuffers said:
as for making £50K cars, 15 years ago you could get away with making cars with questionable quality/reliability/warrentee's, those days are long gone.
I'm not sure 15 years ago Lotus were producing unreliable cars?Scuffers said:
The Evora started at £60K (not sure what you can buy a new one for now?), but ignoring that,
Yes, best ignore that, as it's wrong and the Porsche comes off very badly in comparison. The Evora started at £48K (now £50 I believe), and if you fully load it you can add about £13K to that. The equivalent Porsche starts slightly lower and you can put nearly £30K on it with the legendary Porsche "what, you want comfortable seats?" options list.Scuffers said:
These days there is no way you can get away with questionable build, cheap materials, etc. and then expect to charge big money for it.
You seriously believe that's true of the Evora? Oh well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.using the legislation argument on the S1 just does not hold water, there is no law saying you have to have all the s
t they added.and all your Evora arguments fly in the face of reality, which is, it's not selling, I don't believe you can say the same for Porsche.
Scuffers said:
I like the way you can argue black is white etc!
using the legislation argument on the S1 just does not hold water, there is no law saying you have to have all the st they added.
and all your Evora arguments fly in the face of reality, which is, it's not selling, I don't believe you can say the same for Porsche.
Don't get me wrong, I think Lotus have a real problem with the Evora and I'm sure they're not selling in the numbers they wanted. However, I disagree with your view that 'Lotus are unreliable, too expensive and poorly made' (to paraphrase). That's not the problem that's holding back the Evora. We're in the Evora forum right here, and the negative posts don't seem to be coming from owners. In every last 'anti' post I've read here and in other forums it doesn't come down to reliability, cost or build quality - it boils down to "it's not a Porsche". Pretty much to a man, the most vocal critics are Porsche owners.using the legislation argument on the S1 just does not hold water, there is no law saying you have to have all the s
t they added.and all your Evora arguments fly in the face of reality, which is, it's not selling, I don't believe you can say the same for Porsche.
Now, you could put that down to the Evora's ride, performance and handling threatening the cosy Porsche world view, but until Lotus can eliminate the 'reasons not to buy a Lotus' that get trotted out, they're not going to win market share. It's fine talking about performance figures like a fraction of a second really matters, or discussing depreciation as though the difference between loosing 20K and 22K in two years crosses some imaginary barrier of acceptable ways to loose money, but the thing that sells cars like this is the emotion you're left with after a test drive.
In the Evora's case, I don't think anyone's disputing it's a stunning drive. But people want to put their money down confident that they've made the right decision. The "but it's not a Porsche" thing is just the same as the old "no-one ever got sacked for buying IBM" - Porsche is a safe bet that you have to justify to no-one (or at least no-one you care about).
You're right that Lotus haven't got that safe feel that you get from a Porsche. Frankly with a platform that's been in production for barely two years, the Germans have a good head start there. Porsche sell in far larger numbers but I really don't think it's the car that's at fault, rather the perception of the manufacturer.
The Evora seems to be maturing nicely, but whether it'll ever convince Porsche owners, I don't know.
Oxymoron Tuna, a car can't be a "stunning drive" if you can't change gear effectively at high rpm's ! Even Autocar Magazine, ( Lotus's PR mouthpiece ) said in the recent Steve Sutcliffe Video of the Evora S, that the gearshift is still flawed. Shifting gear without thought is as much a part of a car that is a "stunning drive" as is braking perfectly or steering perfectly. Lotus are supposed to be a world renowned design consultancy, how many previous models have had hopeless gear linkages, Europa, Esprit, to some degree M100, and Elise ?
Notice you didn't comment on my layman assumptions on the Avensis Diesel drive train ?
Looked at some random examples of Evora at my local Lotus dealer last night, the fit and finish is just not £70K car or even a £50K car, and paint is poor, but the ripply fibre glass is simply awful, Lotus were once the masters of glass fibre. Every car has the awful ripply bit just under the rear side vent, reminds me of a Reliant Scimitar of which I was once very fond, but the panel gaps aren't as good as Reliant managed to achieve !
Notice you didn't comment on my layman assumptions on the Avensis Diesel drive train ?
Looked at some random examples of Evora at my local Lotus dealer last night, the fit and finish is just not £70K car or even a £50K car, and paint is poor, but the ripply fibre glass is simply awful, Lotus were once the masters of glass fibre. Every car has the awful ripply bit just under the rear side vent, reminds me of a Reliant Scimitar of which I was once very fond, but the panel gaps aren't as good as Reliant managed to achieve !
ravon said:
Oxymoron Tuna, a car can't be a "stunning drive" if you can't change gear effectively at high rpm's ! Even Autocar Magazine, ( Lotus's PR mouthpiece ) said in the recent Steve Sutcliffe Video of the Evora S, that the gearshift is still flawed. Shifting gear without thought is as much a part of a car that is a "stunning drive" as is braking perfectly or steering perfectly. Lotus are supposed to be a world renowned design consultancy, how many previous models have had hopeless gear linkages, Europa, Esprit, to some degree M100, and Elise ?
I don't know, I wouldn't want to be an apologist for Lotus (seriously, they just happen to be the manufacturer that has historically produced cars closest to the sort of vehicle I want). Personally I always got on fine with the Elise gear linkage, though I never tracked my car. I know that the feel isn't the same as a short, direct linkage but it never got in the way of driving.ravon said:
Notice you didn't comment on my layman assumptions on the Avensis Diesel drive train ?
I'm a layman too, so couldn't comment. I'd assume that a diesel drive train would be designed to cope with much higher torque than a petrol one, but have nothing much to back up that assumption.
Tuna said:
Scuffers said:
I like the way you can argue black is white etc!
using the legislation argument on the S1 just does not hold water, there is no law saying you have to have all the st they added.
and all your Evora arguments fly in the face of reality, which is, it's not selling, I don't believe you can say the same for Porsche.
Don't get me wrong, I think Lotus have a real problem with the Evora and I'm sure they're not selling in the numbers they wanted. However, I disagree with your view that 'Lotus are unreliable, too expensive and poorly made' (to paraphrase). That's not the problem that's holding back the Evora. We're in the Evora forum right here, and the negative posts don't seem to be coming from owners. In every last 'anti' post I've read here and in other forums it doesn't come down to reliability, cost or build quality - it boils down to "it's not a Porsche". Pretty much to a man, the most vocal critics are Porsche owners.using the legislation argument on the S1 just does not hold water, there is no law saying you have to have all the s
t they added.and all your Evora arguments fly in the face of reality, which is, it's not selling, I don't believe you can say the same for Porsche.
Now, you could put that down to the Evora's ride, performance and handling threatening the cosy Porsche world view, but until Lotus can eliminate the 'reasons not to buy a Lotus' that get trotted out, they're not going to win market share. It's fine talking about performance figures like a fraction of a second really matters, or discussing depreciation as though the difference between loosing 20K and 22K in two years crosses some imaginary barrier of acceptable ways to loose money, but the thing that sells cars like this is the emotion you're left with after a test drive.
In the Evora's case, I don't think anyone's disputing it's a stunning drive. But people want to put their money down confident that they've made the right decision. The "but it's not a Porsche" thing is just the same as the old "no-one ever got sacked for buying IBM" - Porsche is a safe bet that you have to justify to no-one (or at least no-one you care about).
You're right that Lotus haven't got that safe feel that you get from a Porsche. Frankly with a platform that's been in production for barely two years, the Germans have a good head start there. Porsche sell in far larger numbers but I really don't think it's the car that's at fault, rather the perception of the manufacturer.
The Evora seems to be maturing nicely, but whether it'll ever convince Porsche owners, I don't know.
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I`m pretty sure I`m not adding anything that hasn`t already been said in one way or another already , but as an owner of a S1 sport135 Elise and a Porker here`s my perspective.
My Elise has been superb , it`s 12 years old now I`ve had it from new - and no it isn`t for sale. :P
When I saw the Boxster Spyder I liked the look of it , thought to myself I`ll test drive that and it will be nothing more than a great engine matched with a competent chassis which in comparison to the driving experience of an Elise will be as exciting as driving a hatchback.
Coincidentally at the same time I had the chance to attend an Evora event , test driving one on a 17 mile route on some B roads around Harrogate.
Comparing the two the Evora murders the Porsche on ride quality , some of those roads were appalling and it`s ability to smooth them out is uncanny. The steering feel is excellent and the body control / handling superb.
The Porsche can`t match the ride quality (in fairness I haven`t driven any sports car in this sector that can) but it has the handling. The ride in comparison with cars of this type that aren`t a Lotus is good.Engine wise there is no comparison , although I found the Toyota to be a willing enough unit if a bit muted.
The gearbox on the Evora isn`t good , that and the smell of glue were the worst points.
The bottom line is the Evora if you take out the quality of the build is an excellent driving experience and one that only Lotus can provide , sadly Porsche have a car for less money that is better built , has a better engine , handles superbly , looks better (subjective) and for those that care (I don`t) has the badge.
I love Lotus , but I bought the Porsche.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh.....the shock that a car that once cost 50K is now only worth 30K now that its is three years old...yep...that is a March 2009 car and we are now in late Feb 2012. Guys, are we really trying to suggest that becuase a car has 'only' kept 60% of its residual value after 3 years that this is somehow surprising or is evidence that makes the Evora a bad car?????? Oh but it has sport, tech and premium pack you say, as well as reverse cam and power mirrors, so it was actually a 60K car you say. Well, as a special edition brought out by Lotus for promotional purposes no doubt, I don't think anyone actually paid for those options on this car...but, for arguments sake, even if they did, that still means this car has kept 50% of its value after 3 years...not bad at all given that 20%, or probably 17.5% back then, was VAT and was wiped off as soon as it had done 1 mile. Come to think of it, given the awful colour and negativity any such special edition carries, 30K is probably asking too much.
1981linley said:
Ahhhhhhhhhhh.....the shock that a car that once cost 50K is now only worth 30K now that its is three years old...yep...that is a March 2009 car and we are now in late Feb 2012. Guys, are we really trying to suggest that becuase a car has 'only' kept 60% of its residual value after 3 years that this is somehow surprising or is evidence that makes the Evora a bad car?????? Oh but it has sport, tech and premium pack you say, as well as reverse cam and power mirrors, so it was actually a 60K car you say. Well, as a special edition brought out by Lotus for promotional purposes no doubt, I don't think anyone actually paid for those options on this car...but, for arguments sake, even if they did, that still means this car has kept 50% of its value after 3 years...not bad at all given that 20%, or probably 17.5% back then, was VAT and was wiped off as soon as it had done 1 mile. Come to think of it, given the awful colour and negativity any such special edition carries, 30K is probably asking too much.
Over reaction?Small Car said:
Over reaction?
Can't blame his frustration. There are a few people who are obsessed with doing down the Evora, and this makes a nice easy headline.The early launch edition cars are a bit of a mixed bag, so prices are variable - but there are bargains to be had. In the mean time, an equivalent Porsche is only a spit more (and before you go on about the launch price of the Evora, we all know how much steeper the Porsche options list is). Frankly that's not bad going that a well established marque with a huge dealer network and immense brand loyalty can only command a grand or so difference over the newcomer.
Otherwise, it's a bit of a stuck record. You can have a three year old Cayman S for the same price as an Evora. So? In the intervening three years, Lotus have made huge strides in improving their model, how much has the Cayman changed?
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