The Official Arsenal - 12 x FA Cup Winners - Thread [Vol 3]

The Official Arsenal - 12 x FA Cup Winners - Thread [Vol 3]

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anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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I'm intrigued gents, just where do you see the potential - what aspect of his game makes you think he can make it? Normally you would see something, but I don't see anything!

I think for every Ramsey you could quote half a dozen that have pretty much crashed and burned, so Wenger's track record isn't that good tbh.

Chad_Hugo

649 posts

177 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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That would be the same for any manager/team though- when you sign teenagers there is big chance they won't ever become first team regulars and will depart for the lower leagues- if there's one area where Wenger should not really be questioned it's unearthing talent.

Hard to say who we will sign this summer- we have been linked to Remy countless times over the years, I have a feeling Wenger would already have signed him if he wanted to, he has had so many opportunities to get him and turned them all down.

Balloteli- no chance unfortunately, it's a nothing story, no substance to it at all, a shame as I think he would be great here and could become one of the best players in the world under Wenger.

Higuain- Napoli paid 32 million for him, they will want to make a big profit to sell so soon. This was a big mistake by Wenger, should have paid the extra £ Madrid wanted.

Cavani- Didn't he cost £53 million? If PSG are prepared to take a loss on him it could work potentially, I don't see Wenger meeting that price let alone going above it.

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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had ham said:
I'm intrigued gents, just where do you see the potential - what aspect of his game makes you think he can make it? Normally you would see something, but I don't see anything!

I think for every Ramsey you could quote half a dozen that have pretty much crashed and burned, so Wenger's track record isn't that good tbh.
This! Actually you could see Ramsey had it in getting Cardiff to the FA Cup final, string of MOTM perfomances in the Championship, where physicality is king and skill gets strangled at birth - No brainer. Not much of a punt that, especially when in competition with Ol Red Nose for his services.
Clearly AW is looking for another Kanu / Arabspaymore type player - he is clearly nowhere near, but was a lot cheaper than pursuing a real potential player like Lukaku.
Anyone old enough to have also seen the debut of Niall (great touch for such a big guy) Quinn? 2 goals against Liverpool (when they really were good!). He could head the ball, shield it, give delicate lay-offs and still get a shot away while being bundled over -right from the very start. The sort of player we should be adding to our squad should already have the self -evident basics and just need experience to polish him up.
£50 at evens says Sanogo will never score 12 EPL goals in a season for us before being 'moved on' (even if he gets as many chances as Aliadiere - another 'beeg potenshal' player).

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Glassman said:
They've only just signed Goetze?
Not gelling apparently (if you believe reports, Pep wants to sign another striker but has to make room)

Lost soul

8,712 posts

181 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Chad_Hugo said:
if there's one area where Wenger should not really be questioned it's unearthing talent.
yes

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Chad_Hugo said:
That would be the same for any manager/team though- when you sign teenagers there is big chance they won't ever become first team regulars and will depart for the lower leagues- if there's one area where Wenger should not really be questioned it's unearthing talent.
We need to explore that statement, can only do that if we agree on the definition of 'unearthing'. Henry, Pires, Wiltord, Vieira and similar were already either full internationals or had already been bought at a significant price by a non-French club and underused. I'll ignore players that made it through the academy route but were in the club pre-AW (Cole etc.)
For genuine unearthing I'll propose Cesc (although the Barca academy isn't exactly subterranean), Anelka (ditto with Clairfontain), Song (though many eejits gave him the same treatment Rambo was getting during his re-playing period),Toure (though AW will have to explain why, dispite trialling him TWICE, he failed to sign Yaya), Walcott (again tearing up trees at So'ton but AW overlooked the monkey boy at full back.), Ramsey (similar to Walcott only more convincing, Reyes (at a pinch - some argue he was an error),Adebayor (although really 'unearthed' by Metz and already capped), Clichy.
Errors of judgement in buying (and often perservering with long after the average punter knew time should've been called)include:
Diawara, Quincy, Mendes, Park, Squillaci, Cygan, Stepanovs, Djourou, Denilson, Tavleridies, Santos, Senderos (Jason Roberts' bh), Bischoff.
The judgement on whether the following would have / do play better under different management is open to debate but to complete the picture I give you: Jeffers, Wright, Pennant, Hoyte, Bentley, Chamakh, Bendtner, Eboue, Stokes.
My opinion is that AW has no better record in pulling off master strokes than anyone else, and they appear to have dried up (Ramsey excepted) in the last 6 years. The rules of the game have changed and everyone else has learned what Wenger knew in 1996.

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Trophybloo said:
The judgement on whether the following would have / do play better under different management is open to debate but to complete the picture I give you: Jeffers, Wright, Pennant, Hoyte, Bentley, Chamakh, Bendtner, Eboue, Stokes.
My opinion is that AW has no better record in pulling off master strokes than anyone else, and they appear to have dried up (Ramsey excepted) in the last 6 years. The rules of the game have changed and everyone else has learned what Wenger knew in 1996.
I grant you he's not done it as much recently but Sagna and Kozzer were both fantastic buys and whilst he's not there yet Jenkinson for £1mil was a great purchase.

Lots of people saying Higuain but is he going to leave /are they going to sell him after a year?

I think Benzema is more likely as Real look to fund a Suarez move. I read something a while ago that Liverpool blocked Arsenal because Suarez owed them and Suarez thinks this year has paid off that debt.

What I really want to see is a midfield powerhouse...Matic has been a great buy for Chelsea. We could have Ronaldo up front but in the genuine title chasing six pointers we need something more in midfield!

celicawrc

3,343 posts

149 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Even if we win the FA cup, being involved in a scrap with Everton for fourth shows Wenger and the club have massively underachieved AGAIN!

3% ticket price rises again for next year.... the unwillingness to invest money back into the team is nothing more than a complete and utter fking disgrace!

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Cheib said:
I grant you he's not done it as much recently but Sagna and Kozzer were both fantastic buys and whilst he's not there yet Jenkinson for £1mil was a great purchase.

Yes but Sagna (2007!..and already a U21 cap), Kozzer, Verm and BFG were all existing top performers. I left them out for the same reason as the Gilberto Silva / Vivas typesthey weren't 'unearthed' talent even if AW (or David Dein) did good business in signing them.
If you are going to say he's great at unearthing talent you have to concede he's guilty of discarding talent too easily. Gilberto, Edu, Pires, Lauren, Upson and Merson should not have been moved on when they were. More ambition might have kept Vieira (although AW clearly had his sights on Diaby as the replacement. Sagna is going the same way.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if he'd played hardball and kept van P for the last year of his contract would he then have joined the Moyes project? Nasri doesn't interest me, we got a good deal out of moving him on.
I would also argue that in having an obsession about the way in which he wants forwards to learn to play out wide he has wrecked Bendtner and failed to utilise Arshavins talents.

Midfield power house - Pogba. However expect to hear 'If I had signed him it would have destroyed Diaby'

Edited by Trophybloo on Wednesday 30th April 13:03


Edited by Trophybloo on Wednesday 30th April 13:09

bobo

1,702 posts

277 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Glassman said:
Many of us were saying the same about Ramsey.

We said the same about a lot of the unheard of players Wenger has introduced, some have come good and many haven't. Whilst I agree on Sanogo, he's young and is still adjusting to the players around him as well as the system/what Wenger wants from him; it's his first season and he hasn't had much of a run.
precisely .. look at song and his first full (i might add) season, he couldn't pass a ball to the guy 5m on his left!

i couldn't disagree more with some of the appraisals on here of sanogo. i think hes got 'a lot' in his locker but needs confidence in the epl ie game time... perspective - he should be out on loan imho doing that and probably would have been assuming we bought a 2nd striker who would have put that ligue 2 fellow with zero pace on the bench. such is the fine mess AW put us in.

hes one for the future not one to get us competing day 1. would be glad to see giroud go, 2 x bona fide top flight strikers in but sanogo stay on the scene.

his stand still costs are nothing and cost us nothing. hes got great potential (if you consider his pedigree) and will only appreciate in value. zero sum game that. giroud on the other hand ?

seeing as AW is staying for another 2 seasons he gets yet another bite at the apple to just go out there and buy what it takes to get the job done....

heres my bet, giroud stays (AW likes to try and prove a failed point for about 5 seasons etc) and we pickup a cheap striker like remy who is probably precisely the wrong type of striker we need for our system ie pace, power, size which is what sanogo will turn into in a couple of years imho.

bobo

1,702 posts

277 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Trophybloo said:
We need to explore that statement, can only do that if we agree on the definition of 'unearthing'. Henry, Pires, Wiltord, Vieira and similar were already either full internationals or had already been bought at a significant price by a non-French club and underused. I'll ignore players that made it through the academy route but were in the club pre-AW (Cole etc.)
For genuine unearthing I'll propose Cesc (although the Barca academy isn't exactly subterranean), Anelka (ditto with Clairfontain), Song (though many eejits gave him the same treatment Rambo was getting during his re-playing period),Toure (though AW will have to explain why, dispite trialling him TWICE, he failed to sign Yaya), Walcott (again tearing up trees at So'ton but AW overlooked the monkey boy at full back.), Ramsey (similar to Walcott only more convincing, Reyes (at a pinch - some argue he was an error),Adebayor (although really 'unearthed' by Metz and already capped), Clichy.
Errors of judgement in buying (and often perservering with long after the average punter knew time should've been called)include:
Diawara, Quincy, Mendes, Park, Squillaci, Cygan, Stepanovs, Djourou, Denilson, Tavleridies, Santos, Senderos (Jason Roberts' bh), Bischoff.
The judgement on whether the following would have / do play better under different management is open to debate but to complete the picture I give you: Jeffers, Wright, Pennant, Hoyte, Bentley, Chamakh, Bendtner, Eboue, Stokes.
My opinion is that AW has no better record in pulling off master strokes than anyone else, and they appear to have dried up (Ramsey excepted) in the last 6 years. The rules of the game have changed and everyone else has learned what Wenger knew in 1996.
agree. besides sanogo was well known to everyone before we captured him difference being we were the only top flight team mad enough to guarantee him game time.

thats the difference between a pro outfit trying to win on the pitch and basically our asset management approach. sanogo could be sold off for £7m+ at the end of this season alone. that's a nice trade and sums up AW's approach since the invincible s were disbanded and replaced by children.

JaFool1

950 posts

193 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Anyway......................

A win on the weekend against WBA or an Everton loss against City will secure us 4th place.

This would be ideal as it would allow us to rest key players for 2 weeks before the FA Cup final.

To be honest, if you had said Top 4 and a FA Cup final at the start of the season I would have taken it.

I really hope this summer marks the change in the clubs ambition, all the signs point to it:- 2 new long term sponsorship deals, the level of debt on the new stadium, and the 42m on Ozil.

It will be another summer of waiting and frustration, but at the end of it I hope the 2 - 3 'Quality' signings that we need have been made otherwise it will just be another repeat of the past 7 seasons, always falling short.






Edited by JaFool1 on Wednesday 30th April 13:45

bobo

1,702 posts

277 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
JaFool1 said:
Anyway......................


To be honest, if you had said Top 4 and a FA Cup final at the start of the season I would have taken it.








Edited by JaFool1 on Wednesday 30th April 13:45
ahhhhh the typical gooner malaise of years of being peddled nonsense by wenger and his board.... that should be the minimum considering the below.

AW wont make the seismic shift from setting up to just qualify 4th in the epl and setting up to compete for honours. bloody big difference that this club can easily afford and should be doing considering the weak merchandising revenues on the back of not setting up to win for years quite frankly.


Rankings as of 2 March 2014.[1]

Rank Team Country Value ($M)[2] % change
on year Revenue ($M)
1 Real Madrid Spain Spain 3,300 76 650
2 Manchester United England England 3,165 42 502
3 Barcelona Spain Spain 2,600 99 613
4 Arsenal England England 1,326 3 368
5 Bayern Munich Germany Germany 1,309 6 468
6 AC Milan Italy Italy 945 -4 326
7 Chelsea England England 901 18 409
8 Juventus Italy Italy 694 17 248
9 Manchester City England England 689 35 362
10 Liverpool England England 651 5 296
11 Tottenham Hotspur England England 520 -8 226
12 Schalke 04 Germany Germany 498 -15 221
13 Borussia Dortmund Germany Germany 436 16 240
14 Internazionale Italy Italy 401 -18 236
15 Lyon France France 368 -4 167

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
bobo said:
agree. besides sanogo was well known to everyone before we captured him difference being we were the only top flight team mad enough to guarantee him game time.

thats the difference between a pro outfit trying to win on the pitch and basically our asset management approach. sanogo could be sold off for £7m+ at the end of this season alone. that's a nice trade and sums up AW's approach since the invincible s were disbanded and replaced by children.
Seems we agree on the majority of my points except S'no go. Gawd, if someone would pay £7M on the basis of his failure to score during his limited opportunities we should bite their hands off. Oh yes, that reminds me the other AW defect is going after one player and ending up with another as a consolation - Hazard / Gervinho (on whom we lost money)!
Hazard, Mata, Cahill, Toure (Y), Higuain, Xavi Alonso, Arteta in 2005 - All players we fannied around deciding, failed to meet a valuation or failed to offer sufficient inducement. These are just the ones I know for certain.
Can you imagine if we'd had Xabi Alonso, Cesc and MA simultaneously?

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
bobo said:
ahhhhh the typical gooner malaise of years of being peddled nonsense by wenger and his board.... that should be the minimum considering the below.

AW wont make the seismic shift from setting up to just qualify 4th in the epl and setting up to compete for honours. bloody big difference that this club can easily afford and should be doing considering the weak merchandising revenues on the back of not setting up to win for years quite frankly.


Rankings as of 2 March 2014.[1]

Rank Team Country Value ($M)[2] % change
on year Revenue ($M)
1 Real Madrid Spain Spain 3,300 76 650
2 Manchester United England England 3,165 42 502
3 Barcelona Spain Spain 2,600 99 613
4 Arsenal England England 1,326 3 368
5 Bayern Munich Germany Germany 1,309 6 468
6 AC Milan Italy Italy 945 -4 326
7 Chelsea England England 901 18 409
8 Juventus Italy Italy 694 17 248
9 Manchester City England England 689 35 362
10 Liverpool England England 651 5 296
11 Tottenham Hotspur England England 520 -8 226
12 Schalke 04 Germany Germany 498 -15 221
13 Borussia Dortmund Germany Germany 436 16 240
14 Internazionale Italy Italy 401 -18 236
15 Lyon France France 368 -4 167
Sure but two years ago we weren't anywhere near these revenue deals. The weak commercial revenues until this year were mostly because the deals that just expired had huge up front payments to help pay for the stadium. The current Nike shirt deal had a one off payment of £50mil when it was signed with much lower than market annual fees.

All water under the bridge though...Arsenal are getting roughly £60 mil a year in revenues compared to two years ago, they chopped a st load of dead wood last summer (Bentdner and Park to go this summer ), have the extra £60 mil a year from Sky etc

Financially things look fantastic....let's just hope they deliver one Ozil type signing and two or three others this summer. It feels like Arsenal have needed a perpetual two or three players to be contenders for the last ten years but now it feels genuine.


Adam B

27,142 posts

253 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Chad_Hugo said:
Cavani- Didn't he cost £53 million? If PSG are prepared to take a loss on him it could work potentially, I don't see Wenger meeting that price let alone going above it.
rumour is PSG want £60M, and Chelsea and Man Utd are interested - good luck!

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
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Adam B said:
rumour is PSG want £60M, and Chelsea and Man Utd are interested - good luck!
Chelsea may be interested but ffp limits what they can spend this summer. Easier for the Glazers from that point of view but I don' t see them sanctioning a single purchase that big. The rumoured 200M warchest needs to cover at least 5 purchases.

Glassman

22,501 posts

214 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Trophybloo said:
bobo said:
agree. besides sanogo was well known to everyone before we captured him difference being we were the only top flight team mad enough to guarantee him game time.

thats the difference between a pro outfit trying to win on the pitch and basically our asset management approach. sanogo could be sold off for £7m+ at the end of this season alone. that's a nice trade and sums up AW's approach since the invincible s were disbanded and replaced by children.
Seems we agree on the majority of my points except S'no go. Gawd, if someone would pay £7M on the basis of his failure to score during his limited opportunities we should bite their hands off. Oh yes, that reminds me the other AW defect is going after one player and ending up with another as a consolation - Hazard / Gervinho (on whom we lost money)!
Hazard, Mata, Cahill, Toure (Y), Higuain, Xavi Alonso, Arteta in 2005 - All players we fannied around deciding, failed to meet a valuation or failed to offer sufficient inducement. These are just the ones I know for certain.
Can you imagine if we'd had Xabi Alonso, Cesc and MA simultaneously?
When Patrick Vieira and Emmanuel Petit weren't a long way from being the ready-made players you've mentioned. When Kolo Toure was blooded into the first team he was played here, there and everywhere and I remember thinking what a st player he looked. The following season he started to show potential for being a good defender.

I think we also have to keep an open mind on why we didn't sign the likes of Hazard and Mata. Were they offered more wages? Or did they perhaps feel that Arsenal were not an ambitious enough club at that time (or were short of decent players)??

Trophybloo

1,207 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Don't quite follow the Vieira / Petit point (predictive?).
Keeping an open mind about Hazard and Mata still leaves the questions; WTF did the wise one not see the potential in Yaya and why didn't he match Liverpool's valuation on Alonso and WTF did he sign Gervinho!
You didn't think Kolo had potential when he scored against Leeds when we were 4 up in 15 mins? (JH Christ even he looked more of a forward than Sanogo does! Has anyone seen a genuinely good performance from him with their own eyes? Can't think there are too many watching Auxerre in Ligue 2 on Canal plus on this forum.)

Allyc85

7,225 posts

185 months

Wednesday 30th April 2014
quotequote all
Yaya Toure was effectively ours, but due to issues with his passport/work permit he buggered off to Russia where it wasn't a problem.
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