The Official Arsenal - 12 x FA Cup Winners - Thread [Vol 3]

[Cupramax]

lazyitus said:

Is this the general consensus from you lot? Seems very harsh to me.

Its a sad thing to see in the Arsenal crowd but you reap what you sow, weve been making the same mistakes incessantly for seasons now and not strengthened in the positions where required. At the end of the day its down to him and in the same way he bought changes to the premiereship when he arrived, things have moved on again now and we havent and doesnt seem to be able to adapt our style against the best teams. We used to go into big games expecting to win, thats now expecting to lose and you can see it in the players. Thats down to one person.

[MrMagoo]

lazyitus said:

Is this the general consensus from you lot? Seems very harsh to me.

It really is painful to see that .... But yes, with him in charge we will continue to be the best of the rest. If we want to seriously challenge for honours, then he has to go. I won't scoop as low as some posters on here and I'll continue to have great admiration for him, he's given me the greatest memories I have in football, and for that I will always be greatfull.

[lazyitus]

Decent responses. Cheers chaps. I admire Wenger immensely. There aren't many who have done what he has in football. But I guess football's a winning game and and can see where you're coming from. It's a ruthless business, eh?

[Alfahorn]

MrMagoo said:

lazyitus said:

Is this the general consensus from you lot? Seems very harsh to me.

It really is painful to see that .... But yes, with him in charge we will continue to be the best of the rest. If we want to seriously challenge for honours, then he has to go. I won't scoop as low as some posters on here and I'll continue to have great admiration for him, he's given me the greatest memories I have in football, and for that I will always be greatfull.

I'll take it there was a jibe at me there. My vitriol towards Wenger steams from his steadfast refusal to address the issues that have affected the team in the last 5 years. He has plainly not good enough anymore, finally even some of the most staunch apologists such as yourself have accepted that I and others have been right for some time.

My respect for Wenger is non-existent. It would have been intact had he at least attempted to make changes to our obvious weaknesses such as; not having a quality defensive midfielder, our failure to defend, our pathetic attempt at set plays both defensive and offensive, our lack of leadership, our woeful injury problems, our inability to set up our team according the challenge we face. He has done nothing, absolutely nothing to address these problems for years. In addition our record against the very clubs were should consider our rivals is atrocious and in recent seasons we've been on the ending of absolute hidings to the likes of Chelsa, Man City, Man Utd & Liverpool.

As much as I celebrated Wenger in his first 8-9 years at the club I now despise him with very fibre of my being. He took the club too some incredible highs and now we are a joke. I just don't know for the life of me why he is still here, he simply doesn't know when to call it a day.

I like many Arsenal fans see the need for change but with Wenger refusing to have the good grace to stand down and the spineless board lacking the courage to say enough is enough. I can see this continuing until the end of his current contract, he isn't going to stand down and they aren't going to sack him and in the meantime we will continue to fall further and further off the pace. It's this feeling of helplessness that has meant my frustration has boiled over in to outright anger.

[bobo]

lazyitus said:

Is this the general consensus from you lot? Seems very harsh to me.

Only a delusional gooner would call that harsh.

the guy has been in the position of never being under pressure to win, has had big resources continues to make the same mistakes and is paid a fortune.

Not resigning fab4 on the cheap and keeping ramsey was the last straw.

he can go asap !

[MrMagoo]

Not a jibe Alfa, just an observation. I still maintain personal attacks on a man who has given his all for the club for the best part of two decades, who's ways have changed the Premier League completley, who built one of the greatest teams in football and have made me bask in glory I've never experienced in football before ... A man like that deserves a level of respect regardless of his faults and mistakes, and yes he has and made many.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and everyone's free to express it as you have over the last few years. I agree with a lot of what you say but there's some I don't, nothing wrong with that. It's what makes this forum entertaining!

[Cheib]

As Alfa will know I have always come down on the Wenger side of the fence but always said the excuses ran out in the summer of 2014. For a long time before that it was easy to see (especially if you followed Swiss Ramble's superb blog) that Arsenal simply did not have the money to compete at the very highest level regardless of what was said by that utter cretin PHW at every AGM or indeed anyone else. Until the last year or so you can criticise Wenger for not winning the odd cup competition but anyone that thinks we should have won the league since 2006 and now needs to look at the money Chelsea and Man City in particular were spending. That excuse ran out this year when the shackles came off with the new Puma contract and the renegotiated Emirates contract.

I really have no fking clue what was going through Wenger's mind when he went into this season with two established CB's and no addition in midfield to address the obvious problems of the previous couple of years. What is so fking galling is that Debuchy, Chambers, Welbeck, Ospina and especially Sanchez were all decent signings...having done 80% of the job they failed in the most important area. It also really didn't make sense letting Jenkinson go on loan in those circumstances as he could have covered RB behind Debuchy with Chambers the third CB.....Arseblogger said a week or so ago he'd heard there was a dispute about performance bonuses. I also read that it was Gazidis that forced through the Welbeck deal and Wenger didn't want to do it. Much as I didn't like it I can see what he didn't buy Fabregas because of the form Ramsey showed last year....unfortunately that decision has looked shocking because Ramsey looks nothing like the player of last season.

The Jury is most definitely now out though I think the real issue with the club (and this is where Alfa and I possibly agree) is the board. We have a hung shareholder structure with a majority shareholder who is barely on speaking terms with the guy who owns the other 30% of the club....that is a fking shocking situations and is totally the doing of PHW and the rest of the board (who all made out like fking bandits thanks to Wenger keeping the club Top 4 with zero investment whilst the stadium was built).

I don't hold out much hope for anything transformational happening in January....we'll buy a cheap CB but I reckon that's it.

So my take is if you're anger is directed at Wenger for the performances this year it's totally justified....where I differ is the anger built up because of the performances since 2006. We sold our best player year after year to pya for the stadium....take a look at what that's done to Spuds and Liverpool.

[JackReacher]

bobo said:

Only a delusional gooner would call that harsh.

I must be a delusional gooner then, because I think it's harsh given what he has done for the club.

To sack Wenger would be an absolute disgrace, massive progress on and off the pitch since the George Graham days. Yes, we have not been competing in the league for the last few seasons, but paying for the stadium has obviously reduced our transfer budget. This is changing and we have spent some good money starting with Ozil and then Debuchy, Chambers, Sanchez and Welbeck this year. All good signings. There is no doubt our defence has been poor this season, but if Koscielny and Debuchy had been available along side BFG and Gibbs I think we'd have another 8-10 points, within sight of Chelsea. People argue that he Wenger should have adequate back up, but there are only so many defenders available, and in Chambers and Debuchy he did well. Of course, we are still missing that elusive defensive midfielder and I do think Wenger should have made more effort there.

For some reason, we have also struggled to get players playing well. There have been a few seasons recently where we have been carried by one player, Nasri, RVP, Ramsey last year, Sanchez this year. We have some great players, but need them all performing well.

Gibbs and the Ox are playing some of their best football, Sanchez is obviously outstanding. Jack starts performing and gets injured. If we could just get Ramsey back to his best, and Ozil showing interest then I really think we could be a match for the best teams around. So to that extent, I think Wenger has been very unlucky. He has got his players, but injuries are really taking their toll.

I've been at the Emirates recently to witness the the Anderlecht collapse and Man Utd defeat, both very difficult results to take. BUT, in both games we played some cracking football, some of the best I have seen since the really good Wenger days. Work needs to be done in the defence, and tactics need looking at. But against Dortmund there was clear progress after taking the lead.

I cannot see Wenger getting the sack mid season, and rightly so.

[bobo]

JackReacher said:

I must be a delusional gooner then, because I think it's harsh given what he has done for the club.

To sack Wenger would be an absolute disgrace, massive progress on and off the pitch since the George Graham days. Yes, we have not been competing in the league for the last few seasons, but paying for the stadium has obviously reduced our transfer budget. This is changing and we have spent some good money starting with Ozil and then Debuchy, Chambers, Sanchez and Welbeck this year. All good signings. There is no doubt our defence has been poor this season, but if Koscielny and Debuchy had been available along side BFG and Gibbs I think we'd have another 8-10 points, within sight of Chelsea. People argue that he Wenger should have adequate back up, but there are only so many defenders available, and in Chambers and Debuchy he did well. Of course, we are still missing that elusive defensive midfielder and I do think Wenger should have made more effort there.

For some reason, we have also struggled to get players playing well. There have been a few seasons recently where we have been carried by one player, Nasri, RVP, Ramsey last year, Sanchez this year. We have some great players, but need them all performing well.

Gibbs and the Ox are playing some of their best football, Sanchez is obviously outstanding. Jack starts performing and gets injured. If we could just get Ramsey back to his best, and Ozil showing interest then I really think we could be a match for the best teams around. So to that extent, I think Wenger has been very unlucky. He has got his players, but injuries are really taking their toll.

I've been at the Emirates recently to witness the the Anderlecht collapse and Man Utd defeat, both very difficult results to take. BUT, in both games we played some cracking football, some of the best I have seen since the really good Wenger days. Work needs to be done in the defence, and tactics need looking at. But against Dortmund there was clear progress after taking the lead.

I cannot see Wenger getting the sack mid season, and rightly so.

his attitude is as stale as old bread as are his tactics. the opposition worked him out 4 seasons ago. his arrogance remains - no cover for the positions required pre season or FAB4 on cheap. if you want to actually compete you don't make decisions like that. if you want to just qualify for CL then you do.

dortmund wasn't a test, the team know their manager is off as are their 2 last remaining players at xmas. you cant play effectively as a team under those conditions....klopp played his only card a 442 against us initially. hes had nothing left.... most of the games we lost we lost not because of injuries, thats an excuse, our team is ok but needs improving to win a CL or EPL, we lost those games because of tactical stupidity or no mental will to win.... its been like that for seasons.

what i think we could agree on is its a shame he wont be remembered as the guy who revolutionized the EPL, which is what he did. the longer he stays the less movement he has for excuses; no money; signing bad players; playing good players out of position, not signing cover, absurd tactics etc the more he erodes his good past. but like all stubborn old men they cant see the writing on the wall.

every dog has his day.... AW's at a cost premium to Carlo Ancelotti and almost twice that of Klopp ... (god knows what Koeman is being paid!) ...was long ago irrespective of his past achievements.

do you honestly think any manager worth his salt wouldn't have signed a complete finished article def mid, CB and FAB4 given the resources at AFC and their drive to win? or do you think they would have thought, lets earn interest at 1% on fund because we are ok; arteta and flamini are spring chickens at their peak and in the worse case senario we can play monreal as CB?

utter nonsense...... unfortunately AW has turned himself into a bit of a clown imo .....

[Glassman]

A speculative post...

Received an Arsenal News update that Henry is leaving the MLS and on his way to Europe. Now the Thierry Henry FB page has been updated with a picture of the Emirates.

[Alfahorn]

Cheib said:

As Alfa will know I have always come down on the Wenger side of the fence but always said the excuses ran out in the summer of 2014. For a long time before that it was easy to see (especially if you followed Swiss Ramble's superb blog) that Arsenal simply did not have the money to compete at the very highest level regardless of what was said by that utter cretin PHW at every AGM or indeed anyone else. Until the last year or so you can criticise Wenger for not winning the odd cup competition but anyone that thinks we should have won the league since 2006 and now needs to look at the money Chelsea and Man City in particular were spending. That excuse ran out this year when the shackles came off with the new Puma contract and the renegotiated Emirates contract.

I really have no fking clue what was going through Wenger's mind when he went into this season with two established CB's and no addition in midfield to address the obvious problems of the previous couple of years. What is so fking galling is that Debuchy, Chambers, Welbeck, Ospina and especially Sanchez were all decent signings...having done 80% of the job they failed in the most important area. It also really didn't make sense letting Jenkinson go on loan in those circumstances as he could have covered RB behind Debuchy with Chambers the third CB.....Arseblogger said a week or so ago he'd heard there was a dispute about performance bonuses. I also read that it was Gazidis that forced through the Welbeck deal and Wenger didn't want to do it. Much as I didn't like it I can see what he didn't buy Fabregas because of the form Ramsey showed last year....unfortunately that decision has looked shocking because Ramsey looks nothing like the player of last season.

The Jury is most definitely now out though I think the real issue with the club (and this is where Alfa and I possibly agree) is the board. We have a hung shareholder structure with a majority shareholder who is barely on speaking terms with the guy who owns the other 30% of the club....that is a fking shocking situations and is totally the doing of PHW and the rest of the board (who all made out like fking bandits thanks to Wenger keeping the club Top 4 with zero investment whilst the stadium was built).

I don't hold out much hope for anything transformational happening in January....we'll buy a cheap CB but I reckon that's it.

So my take is if you're anger is directed at Wenger for the performances this year it's totally justified....where I differ is the anger built up because of the performances since 2006. We sold our best player year after year to pya for the stadium....take a look at what that's done to Spuds and Liverpool.

I agree with just about everything you've said Cheib, however as I've said repeatedly year in year out and seems to get ignored the financial constraint has nothing to do with Wengers failure to address the issues on the pitch; bad defending, tactical ineptitude, atrocious set plays, a lack of leadership, need I go on?

Yes, we've had to spend cautiously but we've also spent very poorly at times. I accept Chelsea, Man City & Man United particularly have been able attract better players but I fail to see how we couldn't have spent more wisely and in the areas we really needed to strengthen.

[Alfahorn]

JackReacher said:

I must be a delusional gooner then

Read the whole of your post and I've definitely come to the conclusion you're deluded.

[Glassman]

Cheib said:

I don't hold out much hope for anything transformational happening in January....we'll buy a cheap CB but I reckon that's it.

In for Mats Hummels, will end up with Tyrone Mings.

[Glassman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-ne...

[scrubchub]

Alfahorn said:

Read the whole of your post and I've definitely come to the conclusion you're deluded.

Be nice - he's entitled to his opinion.

As for Henry, 6 month contract and finish his career as an arsenal player....... would love to see that. Not really what we need though!

[aeropilot]

JackReacher said:

bobo said:

Only a delusional gooner would call that harsh.

I must be a delusional gooner then, because I think it's harsh given what he has done for the club.

He's not getting paid 7 million quid a year for what he did a decade ago, he's paid it for results now.

And he's not been worth that money for several years at least - based on current results - not result from long ago.

He's too arrogant and stubborn to do what Fergie did and know when to quite at the right time.

[Cheib]

Alfahorn said:

Yes, we've had to spend cautiously but we've also spent very poorly at times. I accept Chelsea, Man City & Man United particularly have been able attract better players but I fail to see how we couldn't have spent more wisely and in the areas we really needed to strengthen.

The thing that fks me off is that we seemed to be that magic "two players short" of having a decent squad perpetually...which is where the board have been abject in their responsibility. The really fking maddening thing is that Arsenal are at the sharp end of the league so if you do add that extra bit of quality it can easily translate into trophies or at the very worst money!

When I look back over the last few years the worst transfer window was that fking mad trolley dash where he picked up the bargains Santos and Park. Apart from those two I think you can add Chamakh, Gervinho, Squillaci and possibly Arshavin.

In other news I see that Hypocritical Mourinho has been complaining about FFP not being fair.....funnily enough he wasn't complaining about Chelsea' financial strength the alst time he was in charge. The good news is that their powder has run dry....the squad is not full of £20mil players squad players they don't need any more. Only thing he did say that was true is that Chelsea are a "historical club"

[JackReacher]

scrubchub said:

Be nice - he's entitled to his opinion.

Indeed I am, I'm well aware that my opinion differs to the majority of Arsenal fans, but there are still some (maybe not on here) who think he can still do the job.

I agree he is stubborn, and needs to flex his tactics more than he does. I also don't understand why he persists with Sanogo, but then I don't watch him everyday on the training ground. The Fab4 thing hurt me as much as every other gooner, we should have bought him. But I can see why he didn't, from a purely subjective point of view, we didn't need another offensive midfielder. Our priorities in the transfer market were goalscorers, a defensive midfielder and replacements for Sagna and TV5. He delivered of all of those except the defensive midfielder. Before we knew that Fab4 was going to be available, how many fans actually wanted Wenger to go out and buy an attacking midfielder? Not many. Getting him would have been fantastic, and a luxury in an area where we already have some very good players in Ramsey, Ozil, Ox, Santi, Jack, Theo. The fact that some of these players are injured or suffering from a lack of form, along with Fab4 pulling the strings at Chelsae make it look a really poor decision in hindsight, but I get why he didn't at the time.

Our club is run as a business, it is not a billionaires play thing. We are not going to have world class players sitting on the bench as back up like City and Chelsea, and realistically 3/4th in the table is where we fit. I don't like that, but unless the purse strings are really cut, we are not going to match them. Yes, we will have a good run of games every so often, but injuries really hold our potential back. I don't see a change of manager changing much.

[bobo]

JackReacher said:

Indeed I am, I'm well aware that my opinion differs to the majority of Arsenal fans, but there are still some (maybe not on here) who think he can still do the job.

I agree he is stubborn, and needs to flex his tactics more than he does. I also don't understand why he persists with Sanogo, but then I don't watch him everyday on the training ground. The Fab4 thing hurt me as much as every other gooner, we should have bought him. But I can see why he didn't, from a purely subjective point of view, we didn't need another offensive midfielder. Our priorities in the transfer market were goalscorers, a defensive midfielder and replacements for Sagna and TV5. He delivered of all of those except the defensive midfielder. Before we knew that Fab4 was going to be available, how many fans actually wanted Wenger to go out and buy an attacking midfielder? Not many. Getting him would have been fantastic, and a luxury in an area where we already have some very good players in Ramsey, Ozil, Ox, Santi, Jack, Theo. The fact that some of these players are injured or suffering from a lack of form, along with Fab4 pulling the strings at Chelsae make it look a really poor decision in hindsight, but I get why he didn't at the time.

Our club is run as a business, it is not a billionaires play thing. We are not going to have world class players sitting on t the bench as back up like City and Chelsea, and realistically 3/4th in the table is where we fit. I don't likehat, but unless the purse strings are really cut, we are not going to match them. Yes, we will have a good run of games every so often, but injuries really hold our potential back. I don't see a change of manager changing much.

i think your aspirations for afc are institutionalized by AW's own rhetoric over the years, the utterbullste spouted by the manager for so long. eg:- no funds being available (still amazes me that gooners couldn't even be bothered reading their own balance sheet but had an opinion - reminds me of the rows i had on here for the last 3 to 4 seasons on here about finance!). underlying that is also a fear for failure. the fear of the unknown when such an old hand leaves. the vacuum it creates. etc.... in short; just fear.

according to your logic it doesn't really matter which manager we have then. May as well get one in on £1.5mln p.a?

i dont think the issue of where we could come 3rd/4th is really the debate. i say with another manager we would be far higher up the league as the whole team (not just sanchez) would be giving 110pc and playing for their manager (or risk losing their position and being sold or parked). i could be totally wrong, who knows. that's the stuff of crystal balls. what we do know is wenger has built a well oiled system to target achieving CL qualification but no more. there's absolutely no interest to achieve more - only luck, if it happens great, thats a bonus. and that rolls off onto the teams attitude. none of those players are under pressure to perform.

what the issue is here with AW is his method and its repetitive failures. don't tell me Birmingham had a better team than us? did the hammerings / score lines against top teams really reflect the relative difference in quality on the pitch or mental aptitudes of the teams / tactics chosen? if it didn't then why is it that far lesser teams than us constantly suffer by the same heavy scorelines?


personally, i think the managers job has never been more important/influential ..... i would happy pay £10m pa for the best guy in the business and my crystal ball says they will be queuing up round the block to take afc to the next level. all the fundamentals are there, the club status/stature is completely undervalued by most gooners as we have become accustomed to failure and accept it. its a piece of cake.... especially without managerial pressure!

its not as if we don't have the money, stadium, squad, city, culture or history .... what else do you need for success?

[Lost soul]

bobo said:

what we do know is wenger has built a well oiled system to target achieving CL qualification but no more. there's absolutely no interest to achieve more

Sorry mate but that is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read on this thread