The Official Arsenal - 12 x FA Cup Winners - Thread [Vol 3]

[bobo]

Lost soul said:

Sorry mate but that is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read on this thread

not according to the statistics.... or historical lack of signings in key positions.... lets not go into FAB4 not being good enough, in AW's own parlance he would only sign players that would improve the squad.

care to add anything to the list?

Edited by bobo on Tuesday 2nd December 13:02

[Cheib]

bobo said:

i think your aspirations for afc are institutionalized by AW's own rhetoric over the years, the utterbullste spouted by the manager for so long. eg:- no funds being available (still amazes me that gooners couldn't even be bothered reading their own balance sheet but had an opinion - reminds me of the rows i had on here for the last 3 to 4 seasons on here about finance!).

Not sure why you are saying more money was available than was spent.....yes they had cash but that has been used to get the net debt down and also kept because the club needed a Plan B if it missed CL and had to find the money for a £25mil hole. You could argue that the board should have been willing to back the club in those circumstances but they weren't.

This is taken from Swiss Ramble's blog http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/



AS you can see Arsenal were massively reliant on player sales to either avoid losses or make profits....it's those player sales that have paid for the stadium. It's pretty obvious there wasn't a huge amount of money available over and above what was spent.

[bobo]

Cheib said:

Not sure why you are saying more money was available than was spent.....yes they had cash but that has been used to get the net debt down and also kept because the club needed a Plan B if it missed CL and had to find the money for a £25mil hole. You could argue that the board should have been willing to back the club in those circumstances but they weren't.

This is taken from Swiss Ramble's blog http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/



AS you can see Arsenal were massively reliant on player sales to either avoid losses or make profits....it's those player sales that have paid for the stadium. It's pretty obvious there wasn't a huge amount of money available over and above what was spent.

christ not this crap again...

there are plenty of ways AFC could have financed player transfers during that period, they chose not to do so and instead pay off a stadium in record time - the timing of which which will probably never be seen again.

all recognized by your author in the end.

Edited by bobo on Tuesday 2nd December 13:05

[celicawrc]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-...

Apparently we are all ignorant and should be seen (with money) and not heard.

Vile, vile man, his comments just show that failure is accepted and not punished. The club has been stagnant for years, Wenger seems to be clinging on harder than a middle eastern dictator. Sadly i think the decline will continue for atleast another decade.

Mourinho called it right.

[Cheib]

bobo said:

christ not this crap again...

there are plenty of ways AFC could have financed player transfers during that period, they chose not to do so and instead pay off a stadium in record time - the timing of which which will probably never be seen again.

all recognized by your author in the end.

Edited by bobo on Tuesday 2nd December 13:05

I'm all ears....what are the "plenty of ways" ? Short of a rights issue which Usmanov put on the table there wasn't anything else that was realistic. Yes they could have bought more players with the cash they held but that would have had a corresponding increase to the wage bill that we were struggling to cover without selling players anyway. They certainly weren't going to borrow it. I doubt many banks would have been queuing up to lend them money with the stadium and all revenues pledged against the existing stadium debt that is still in place.

[jammy_basturd]

I'm not sure why some of you guys think you should be achieving higher than you are. I think I heard the other day that you've qualified for the knock-out stages of the CL 12 times in a row. How can any one grumble at that?

You've paid for your stadium in record time. In the last two transfer windows you've shown you'll splash the cash now when needed (first Ozil, now Sanchez). Can't you see the knock on effects that will have. Firstly other Worldies will see you as a viable option, secondly, with the stadium all paid off you'll be able to afford them too.

Now, to do better in the league you'll need to get past one of the following:

• Man Utd - huge commercial income and now a formidable team again now they've bought in some good players and a half decent manager.
• Man City - backed by billionaires, have amazing facilities, a world class team and a pretty good manager.
• Chelsea - backed by a billionaire, a good team but a great manager, arguably the best.

Now I'm unsure why or how you think you're going to displace any of those teams, at least on a regular basis?

[bobo]

jammy_basturd said:

I'm not sure why some of you guys think you should be achieving higher than you are. I think I heard the other day that you've qualified for the knock-out stages of the CL 12 times in a row. How can any one grumble at that?

You've paid for your stadium in record time. In the last two transfer windows you've shown you'll splash the cash now when needed (first Ozil, now Sanchez). Can't you see the knock on effects that will have. Firstly other Worldies will see you as a viable option, secondly, with the stadium all paid off you'll be able to afford them too.

Now, to do better in the league you'll need to get past one of the following:

• Man Utd - huge commercial income and now a formidable team again now they've bought in some good players and a half decent manager.
• Man City - backed by billionaires, have amazing facilities, a world class team and a pretty good manager.
• Chelsea - backed by a billionaire, a good team but a great manager, arguably the best.

Now I'm unsure why or how you think you're going to displace any of those teams, at least on a regular basis?

agree with a lot of that and there certainly is a league within a league in the EPL.

so, after 13 games played :-

CFC 33pts, AFC 20pts. is that difference in 13 games or trophy results over the last 8 seasons good enough? lets start with that, not hypothetically being 1 point ahead of CFC.

i don't seriously think any gooner will believe that by changing the manager we will do the quadruple the following season.

i think its about generally improving your chances of success overall with the resources available. perhaps a better manager improves those chances, perhaps not. depends how you look at things.

remember AW is one of the highest earners. so nothing wrong with questioning value not just in terms of commercial success but also success on the pitch. its a football club after all.

[London424]

bobo said:

jammy_basturd said:

I'm not sure why some of you guys think you should be achieving higher than you are. I think I heard the other day that you've qualified for the knock-out stages of the CL 12 times in a row. How can any one grumble at that?

You've paid for your stadium in record time. In the last two transfer windows you've shown you'll splash the cash now when needed (first Ozil, now Sanchez). Can't you see the knock on effects that will have. Firstly other Worldies will see you as a viable option, secondly, with the stadium all paid off you'll be able to afford them too.

Now, to do better in the league you'll need to get past one of the following:

• Man Utd - huge commercial income and now a formidable team again now they've bought in some good players and a half decent manager.
• Man City - backed by billionaires, have amazing facilities, a world class team and a pretty good manager.
• Chelsea - backed by a billionaire, a good team but a great manager, arguably the best.

Now I'm unsure why or how you think you're going to displace any of those teams, at least on a regular basis?

agree with a lot of that and there certainly is a league within a league in the EPL.

so, after 13 games played :-

CFC 33pts, AFC 20pts. is that difference in 13 games or trophy results over the last 8 seasons good enough? lets start with that, not hypothetically being 1 point ahead of CFC.

i don't seriously think any gooner will believe that by changing the manager we will do the quadruple the following season.

i think its about generally improving your chances of success overall with the resources available. perhaps a better manager improves those chances, perhaps not. depends how you look at things.

remember AW is one of the highest earners. so nothing wrong with questioning value not just in terms of commercial success but also success on the pitch. its a football club after all.

Not to forget that Arsenal have a higher wage bill than Chelsea now too.

[Cheib]

jammy_basturd said:

Now, to do better in the league you'll need to get past one of the following:

• Man Utd - huge commercial income and now a formidable team again now they've bought in some good players and a half decent manager.
• Man City - backed by billionaires, have amazing facilities, a world class team and a pretty good manager.
• Chelsea - backed by a billionaire, a good team but a great manager, arguably the best.

Now I'm unsure why or how you think you're going to displace any of those teams, at least on a regular basis?

Of those three in tthe club that Arsenal can compete with is Chelsea....Mourinho's been a much better manager over the last ten years but he's done it at financially dominant clubs (apart from Porto). Chelsea have restructured their team very cleverly and have a youngish squad but they have been able to do that by front loading a lot of investement in the team in the years prior to FFP...and had players like Lukaku and De Bruyne the squad that were never getting near the first team who they were able to sell to buy the likes of Fabregas.

TSO has started moaning about FFP already which tells you everything https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/pitchside-eur...

The days of Chelsea having £100mil a year more than Arsenal to spend on the team are gone. City's backers have done it on a totally different scale with the network of clubs etc around the world and Man U are just miles ahead of any other PL club financially. The interesting thing might be for City that they have a reasonably old squad and have already had issues with FFP. If you believe in FFP it's Man U and the rest.

[jammy_basturd]

bobo said:

agree with a lot of that and there certainly is a league within a league in the EPL.

so, after 13 games played :-

CFC 33pts, AFC 20pts. is that difference in 13 games or trophy results over the last 8 seasons good enough? lets start with that, not hypothetically being 1 point ahead of CFC.

i don't seriously think any gooner will believe that by changing the manager we will do the quadruple the following season.

i think its about generally improving your chances of success overall with the resources available. perhaps a better manager improves those chances, perhaps not. depends how you look at things.

remember AW is one of the highest earners. so nothing wrong with questioning value not just in terms of commercial success but also success on the pitch. its a football club after all.

Changing AW is a roll of the dice essentially. For every time a manager has departed and the incoming been a success, I'd say more often the incoming has been a failure.

So for those wanting AW to leave, are you willing to go through a few years of testing different managers, different systems, different players, etc before you find someone you're happy with?

[Lost soul]

jammy_basturd said:

So for those wanting AW to leave, are you willing to go through a few years of testing different managers, different systems, different players, etc before you find someone you're happy with?

I would not like that at all , but something has to change

[Alfahorn]

jammy_basturd said:

I'm not sure why some of you guys think you should be achieving higher than you are. I think I heard the other day that you've qualified for the knock-out stages of the CL 12 times in a row. How can any one grumble at that?

You've paid for your stadium in record time. In the last two transfer windows you've shown you'll splash the cash now when needed (first Ozil, now Sanchez). Can't you see the knock on effects that will have. Firstly other Worldies will see you as a viable option, secondly, with the stadium all paid off you'll be able to afford them too.

Now, to do better in the league you'll need to get past one of the following:

• Man Utd - huge commercial income and now a formidable team again now they've bought in some good players and a half decent manager.
• Man City - backed by billionaires, have amazing facilities, a world class team and a pretty good manager.
• Chelsea - backed by a billionaire, a good team but a great manager, arguably the best.

Now I'm unsure why or how you think you're going to displace any of those teams, at least on a regular basis?

We don't have a right to be higher than we are. We do have right to expect the manager to address the obvious weaknesses in the team which have been there for at least 5 years, 5 years!!!!!!!!

I'm saying the same thing over and over again. I'm going to have to start copy and pasting!!!!!

[bobo]

jammy_basturd said:

Changing AW is a roll of the dice essentially. For every time a manager has departed and the incoming been a success, I'd say more often the incoming has been a failure.

So for those wanting AW to leave, are you willing to go through a few years of testing different managers, different systems, different players, etc before you find someone you're happy with?

funnily enough im expecting us to take a step back before AW finally leaves.

we are paying top market for AW (too much imho), we can replace him with a AAA grade manager - a guy thats been there and done that at all levels. not talking a moyes here. but AW being the megalomaniac that he is will probably insist on a complete unknown from god knows which league in his image and pay him £50k pa. so yes we will probably take a few more steps back on top of that !

there was an interesting article about JM somewhere. biggest risk to having him at your club is the vacuum he leaves when he goes. good illustration of just how much the players play for him and his importance.

pay peanuts get monkeys (present company excepted with AW)...

[MrMagoo]

Anyone who doesn't think Arsne isn't a top class manager, clearly doesn't know a thing about football. Yes he has his faults, many of them in fact. And a Jose managing our team would probably see us sitting top, but to say Arsne is clueless is straight up rediculous.

He's one of the very best around, even looking at his last 9 years you can clearly see that. Utter tripe to say otherwise.

[JackReacher]

bobo said:

i think your aspirations for afc are institutionalized by AW's own rhetoric over the years,

Thank you, but I am capable of forming my own opinions

Some of the comments on here saying that Wenger is happy collecting his pay check and just finishing 4th are ridiculous.

He wants to win, he goes out to win every match and wants the club to do as well as possible. He especially hates losing to the big clubs. It's clear how upset he is when he loses. I get why people question his tactics sometimes, I do as well, but to question his "desire" (using the wenger term) is nonsense.

The Ozil signing last year showed that we can start spending money again, I want Wenger to have 2 or 3 seasons to build up the squad now that he has these funds. He is not stupid, he knows we need defensive back up and a high quality central midfielder. I fully expect him to get these, either in January or the summer. Even with these added to the squad, I still expect us to finish 3rd most seasons, possibly better if we are lucky, but I would hope we are at least in the fight come late April and occasionally getting some good results against the big clubs.

Simply changing manager, will not get us above 3rd in the league, it is more likely to knock us out of the top 4 in my opinion. The players like Wenger, and he can still attract top players to the club, more so that most other managers who would be available.

[Chuck328]

JackReacher said:

Thank you, but I am capable of forming my own opinions

Some of the comments on here saying that Wenger is happy collecting his pay check and just finishing 4th are ridiculous.

He wants to win, he goes out to win every match and wants the club to do as well as possible. He especially hates losing to the big clubs. It's clear how upset he is when he loses. I get why people question his tactics sometimes, I do as well, but to question his "desire" (using the wenger term) is nonsense.

The Ozil signing last year showed that we can start spending money again, I want Wenger to have 2 or 3 seasons to build up the squad now that he has these funds. He is not stupid, he knows we need defensive back up and a high quality central midfielder. I fully expect him to get these, either in January or the summer. Even with these added to the squad, I still expect us to finish 3rd most seasons, possibly better if we are lucky, but I would hope we are at least in the fight come late April and occasionally getting some good results against the big clubs.

Simply changing manager, will not get us above 3rd in the league, it is more likely to knock us out of the top 4 in my opinion. The players like Wenger, and he can still attract top players to the club, more so that most other managers who would be available.

Agree with a lot of what you say, but as Alfa (quite rightly says) this has been going on for years. It's the same tactics day in day out. Trying to ballet dance yourself into the box just doesn't work like it used to. To highlight your quote, AW should have been addressing these problems when the big guns where thumping 4 plus goals against us.... seasons ago!. I sat in a hotel on holiday when we went 8-2 down, I watched Chelsea totally annihilate our mid field the season after, and again and again.

I will always hold him with utter respect for what he has achieved, but Fergie knew when It was time to quit.

Roll the dice please.....

[bobo]

MrMagoo said:

Anyone who doesn't think Arsne isn't a top class manager, clearly doesn't know a thing about football. Yes he has his faults, many of them in fact. And a Jose managing our team would probably see us sitting top, but to say Arsne is clueless is straight up rediculous.

He's one of the very best around, even looking at his last 9 years you can clearly see that. Utter tripe to say otherwise.

really? interesting statement. what makes a football manager one of the best around in your opinion ?

[bobo]

JackReacher said:

I want Wenger to have 2 or 3 seasons to build up the squad now that he has these funds. He is not stupid, he knows we need defensive back up and a high quality central midfielder. I fully expect him to get these, either in January or the summer.

well i think even the worst pundits can see that. ok lets run with the theory, so lets say he improves the squad (which he now is obliged to do as hes finally under a bit of pressure) so almost a given.

i think any top flight manager would do the same thing - the funds are there. it then comes down to the other differences. some managers know how to breed a winning environment, some managers have a far better understanding of modern tactical play, some promote natural competition and pressure to bring out the best in a team.

im not saying AW is the worst here. hes very good, hes just not in that league within a league imo and thats on the back of a history of well documented tactical mistakes - what good is possession if you don't have the mental aptitude within the team to actually profit from it? football is a game of tiny details now.

let me ask you this; assuming there is a better manager out there (which is highly probable but it seems hard for some gooners to actually get their heads round) would you take him/her for the same or less money? it really is as simple as that.

[scrubchub]

Well, a win is a win! 3 clean sheets in a row now too... what a difference a Koscielny makes (though I know he's only played 2 of them). Get some defensive consistency going and hopefully we'll climb back up the table.

Oh yeah - fking Sanchez! Where would we be etc etc....

[Alfahorn]

MrMagoo said:

Anyone who doesn't think Arsne isn't a top class manager, clearly doesn't know a thing about football. Yes he has his faults, many of them in fact. And a Jose managing our team would probably see us sitting top, but to say Arsne is clueless is straight up rediculous.

He's one of the very best around, even looking at his last 9 years you can clearly see that. Utter tripe to say otherwise.

WAS one of the best around, not now. Sorry, he is clueless otherwise we wouldn't be making the same mistakes season in season out. He doesn't address the issues, I don't think he even sees them.