Ched Evans

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Discussion

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 14th October 2014
quotequote all
zeb said:
You cannot rehabilitate someone who still can't see what he has done wrong.

Bit of a stumbling block that.....
He protests his innocence (i.e. claims that she did consent), which is a bit different from not seeing what you've done wrong (i.e. she didn't consent but there's nothing wrong with having sex with a non-consenting person).

The law says that once the sentence has been completed you should be given the opportunity to re-take your place in society; if you deny an offender the chance to do that, he has little incentive to follow the right path. I see no reason to deviate from that approach no matter how many pitchforks are being waved.

BlackST

9,079 posts

164 months

Tuesday 14th October 2014
quotequote all
zeb said:
You cannot rehabilitate someone who still can't see what he has done wrong.

Bit of a stumbling block that.....
Pretty sure the majority of ex prisoners will still contest their innocence after they have been released.

Bradgate

2,819 posts

146 months

Tuesday 14th October 2014
quotequote all
Evans has had due process, he has served his time and should be free to get on with his life like anyone else in his position.

Would I want a convicted rapist playing for Derby though? No way, however good he is. I simply could not cheer a goal scored by a rapist. Most fans would feel the same.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 14th October 2014
quotequote all
The man's served his punishment. He should be allowed to continue his life, and that includes resuming he professional career.

You can't move people forward by hanging a rock around their neck.

zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
He protests his innocence (i.e. claims that she did consent), which is a bit different from not seeing what you've done wrong (i.e. she didn't consent but there's nothing wrong with having sex with a non-consenting person).

The law says that once the sentence has been completed you should be given the opportunity to re-take your place in society; if you deny an offender the chance to do that, he has little incentive to follow the right path. I see no reason to deviate from that approach no matter how many pitchforks are being waved.
erm.... "she didn't consent but theres nothing wrong with having sex with a non-consenting person" - really? Isnt that a definition of rape?

Evans seems to think its acceptable to have sex with an unconscious women whilst being filmed. I find it worrying if he cannot accept this. Other footballers & sportsmen, Luke McCormack for example, have accepted they were at fault so I have no issue with them moving forward with their lives.

This wasnt just a night out with the lads that went a bit wrong....have a read if you want https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-che...

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
zeb said:
Bluebarge said:
He protests his innocence (i.e. claims that she did consent), which is a bit different from not seeing what you've done wrong (i.e. she didn't consent but there's nothing wrong with having sex with a non-consenting person).

The law says that once the sentence has been completed you should be given the opportunity to re-take your place in society; if you deny an offender the chance to do that, he has little incentive to follow the right path. I see no reason to deviate from that approach no matter how many pitchforks are being waved.
erm.... "she didn't consent but theres nothing wrong with having sex with a non-consenting person" - really? Isnt that a definition of rape?

Evans seems to think its acceptable to have sex with an unconscious women whilst being filmed. I find it worrying if he cannot accept this. Other footballers & sportsmen, Luke McCormack for example, have accepted they were at fault so I have no issue with them moving forward with their lives.

This wasnt just a night out with the lads that went a bit wrong....have a read if you want https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-che...
You have missed the point entirely.

Of course that is the definition of rape. And the reason that he has spent x years in prison is that he was convicted of rape. But if he is protesting his innocence he is saying that there was consent, and that is not rape. It may be the actions of a low-life creep to shag a semi-comatose bird your mate has just had a go on but if she consented that is not technically rape. So, there is a distinction between protesting innocence, and failing to see that the crime you have committed is wrong.

He says he didn't commit the offence and whether we believe him or not is by the by, because the law says you are punished for breaking the law, not for failing to admit that you have done wrong. What you are trying to do is punish him twice - once for the deed, and a second time for failing to admit his wrongdoing. If we were to do that to all offenders, then a lot of men who have been wrongly convicted (and I am not suggesting Ched Evans is one of them) would suffer a double injustice.

So, having been convicted and served his sentence, what is at issue now is whether he should be allowed to re-commence his former career. Given that he will not be working with young women (you obviously wouldn't allow a paedophile to go back to a teaching job) I see no reason why that should not be the case, as it is for every other offender.

zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
I dont think I have missed the point but I respect your opinion all the same. I made the McCormack comparison to illustrate the point about him not accepting his wrongdoing. Its irrelevant whether he continues to protest his innocence, he was found guilty by jury (who, unlike us have seen the video evidence) and his appeal was rejected. We can continue to agree to disagree until the cows come home but he has not admitted his wrongdoing.

For someone who is a role model, as any professional footballer is, to many young men, that reamins a stumbling block to his rehabilitation.

Gargamel

14,957 posts

260 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
Bradgate said:
Evans has had due process, he has served his time and should be free to get on with his life like anyone else in his position.

I am reasonably confident many of us would struggle to return to our former jobs and careers after a spell in jail for Rape.


hornetrider

Original Poster:

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
I am not excusing rape in any shape or form here however for me there seem to be inconsistencies in the case.

zeb said:
Evans seems to think its acceptable to have sex with an unconscious women whilst being filmed. I find it worrying if he cannot accept this.


Agreed however the other guy who had sex with her was acquitted. Either she was incapable or she wasn't. I cannot see how one guy can be found innocent and the other guilty.

zeb said:
I dont think I have missed the point but I respect your opinion all the same. I made the McCormack comparison to illustrate the point about him not accepting his wrongdoing. Its irrelevant whether he continues to protest his innocence, he was found guilty by jury (who, unlike us have seen the video evidence) and his appeal was rejected. We can continue to agree to disagree until the cows come home but he has not admitted his wrongdoing.
It looks like his case will be reviewed by the CCRC but not until 2017, as cases are prioritised for those who remain in custody.

http://m.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/gene...

Bradgate

2,819 posts

146 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
I am reasonably confident many of us would struggle to return to our former jobs and careers after a spell in jail for Rape.
Quite.

But he should have thought of that before he decided to rape someone, shouldn't he?

KareemK

1,110 posts

118 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
hornetrider said:
I am not excusing rape in any shape or form here however for me there seem to be inconsistencies in the case.

zeb said:
Evans seems to think its acceptable to have sex with an unconscious women whilst being filmed. I find it worrying if he cannot accept this.


Agreed however the other guy who had sex with her was acquitted. Either she was incapable or she wasn't. I cannot see how one guy can be found innocent and the other guilty.

zeb said:
I dont think I have missed the point but I respect your opinion all the same. I made the McCormack comparison to illustrate the point about him not accepting his wrongdoing. Its irrelevant whether he continues to protest his innocence, he was found guilty by jury (who, unlike us have seen the video evidence) and his appeal was rejected. We can continue to agree to disagree until the cows come home but he has not admitted his wrongdoing.
If she had made it perfectly clear to him (say in the lift on the way to the room) that she wanted sex with him and then fell asleep or got drunk in the room would that count as consensual? What if she was all but naked of her own making when the drink got the better of her? Certainly you could argue that therefore the first sexual encounter was legal, but that Ched's was rape.

These are grey areas we're dealing with to be honest and I havn't read the particulars of this case but the scenario I paint would answer your question I think.

Gargamel

14,957 posts

260 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
Bradgate said:
Quite.

But he should have thought of that before he decided to rape someone, shouldn't he?
I am in no way defending his actions. I am merely suggesting to those saying he has served his punishment etc and should be rehabilitated that I think for many people - rehabilitation after a jail term, isn't picking up our careers where we left off.


zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all

Agreed however the other guy who had sex with her was acquitted. Either she was incapable or she wasn't. I cannot see how one guy can be found innocent and the other guilty.

]

The CCTv footage shows the girl entering the hotel with Mc donald hence the assumption of her consent to him. Evans was proscecuted on the back on the mobile footage filmed by his mates whilst the girl was unconscious. Thats how mc donald was not prosecuted.

BoRED S2upid

19,641 posts

239 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
I'm surprised he wants to return surely he's going to get chants of rapist rapist for 90 minutes of every game for the rest of his days?

Agree that nobody can tell you what you can and can't do as a career once you have served your time.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
zeb said:
For someone who is a role model, as any professional footballer is, to many young men, that reamins a stumbling block to his rehabilitation.
This is the only bit on which we disagree.

His punishment is his jail time. After that he is entitled to seek employment if he wishes. Whether anyone wants to employ him is up to them. But he should not be excluded from work simply because he does not agree with the verdict of the jury.

I very much doubt that he will now be regarded as a role model. There are many other footballers (and other sportsmen) who have broken the law and returned to work (remember Graham Rix?) - I don't see why things should be any different for Ched Evans.

zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
This is true, i'll guess we'll see how it all unfolds over the coming weeks when he's out.

BlackST

9,079 posts

164 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
I was in the same class as Ched in school.
People I used to know that still live where his family live told me that the girl had tried blaming another person in a different incident before this incident.
I honestly don't think it is rape but there must be some evidence that hasn't made it out into the public otherwise how else could somebody be jailed for 5 years just on another persons word? frown

epom

11,396 posts

160 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
He has be

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
epom said:
He has be
on to this?

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 15th October 2014
quotequote all
BlackST said:
People I used to know that still live where his family live told me that the girl had tried blaming another person in a different incident before this incident.
That multiple-level hearsay doesn't sound overly reliable.

BlackST said:
I honestly don't think it is rape but there must be some evidence that hasn't made it out into the public otherwise how else could somebody be jailed for 5 years just on another persons word? frown
Here's the summary someone linked earlier: https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-che...