Discussion
PurpleTurtle said:
His moral conduct isn't the issue here though.
I don't like the fella, I think he's got morals lower than a snake's belly, he was cheating on his fiance (who has foolishly stood by him, but that's her call), but I don't think he is a 'rapist'.
He was convicted on the basis that he raped her because she was too drunk to consent but his fellow accused was acquitted. This aspect of the case has always frustrated me. If we take the view that she was not plied with booze back in the hotel room (it hasn't been reported, so I'm suggesting she wasn't) then how can she have been less drunk to consent to the first bloke but some time later and with no additional alcohol, then be too drunk to not give consent to Evans? Either both were guilty, or neither.
The argument that she drunkenly said OK to the first bloke doesn't stand up, if (as was allleged) she was too drunk to subsequently give consent to Evans. She must have been too drunk to consent to bloke 1. Why did he walk then?
As I said earlier in the thread, I suspect this young woman willingly went to bed with two footballers. What she didn't like was waking up with none. As you say, it is highly unsavoury, but only three people really know what went on in that hotel room and I suspect at retrial one of them will be exposed as having told a huge whopper.
All my internet advocate opinion, of course.
You can be more drunk an hour after you stop drinking than at the time you stop. you could finish a night out with a couple of large vodkas and walk out fairly tidy, only an hour later find yourself in the gutter. I don't like the fella, I think he's got morals lower than a snake's belly, he was cheating on his fiance (who has foolishly stood by him, but that's her call), but I don't think he is a 'rapist'.
He was convicted on the basis that he raped her because she was too drunk to consent but his fellow accused was acquitted. This aspect of the case has always frustrated me. If we take the view that she was not plied with booze back in the hotel room (it hasn't been reported, so I'm suggesting she wasn't) then how can she have been less drunk to consent to the first bloke but some time later and with no additional alcohol, then be too drunk to not give consent to Evans? Either both were guilty, or neither.
The argument that she drunkenly said OK to the first bloke doesn't stand up, if (as was allleged) she was too drunk to subsequently give consent to Evans. She must have been too drunk to consent to bloke 1. Why did he walk then?
As I said earlier in the thread, I suspect this young woman willingly went to bed with two footballers. What she didn't like was waking up with none. As you say, it is highly unsavoury, but only three people really know what went on in that hotel room and I suspect at retrial one of them will be exposed as having told a huge whopper.
All my internet advocate opinion, of course.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 22 April 10:30
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 22 April 11:19
So she could have started the hotel liaison sober enough to consent to sex with one guy, only to pass out as the drink gets fully into her blood stream, perhaps aided by some of that pizza.... And then find herself in a much different situation.
Let's see what this new evidence is, I'm guessing she's been bragging about it all and telling a different story than was given in evidence.
Efbe said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
spaximus said:
There is no technical or not. It was either consensual sex or rape. No ifs or but.
My understanding is that if you get consent from someone not in a position to give it, it can still be rape. Also, what is consent? Do you need to get a yes, or is the lack of a no good enough? I'm not sure it's as straightforward as you make out.http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual...
cliff notes being very clear that you need a yes, and that this can only be giving when you are not intoxicated.
so saying nothing, or saying yes when intoxicated would be rape.
FredClogs said:
Even though I've been married for 12 years I always get a fully signed consent, in triplicate and fax myself a copy before the conjugal visitations occur, quite often the admin takes longer than the act.
It's a shame you have to get her pissed in order for her to go along with it.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
FredClogs said:
Even though I've been married for 12 years I always get a fully signed consent, in triplicate and fax myself a copy before the conjugal visitations occur, quite often the admin takes longer than the act.
It's a shame you have to get her pissed in order for her to go along with it.TwigtheWonderkid said:
My understanding is that if you get consent from someone not in a position to give it, it can still be rape. Also, what is consent? Do you need to get a yes, or is the lack of a no good enough? I'm not sure it's as straightforward as you make out.
This was the point I was trying to make (badly), in that a girl could say yes but legally not be considered in a fit state to give it. It's quite a sensitive subject really and definitely not as straightforward as it seems. Hardline feminists would demand an explicit "yes" given continuously throughout the act, whereas the reality - what the Law has to somehow deal with - actions, behaviour and intent by all parties involved can (in my opinion) indicate consent.
I tend to agree that one of the guys being found not guilty throws some doubt over the veracity of the second case.
Some people seen to be really struggling with the consent thing, so here's a simple video that puts it as simple as a normal person should ever need.
Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
Evanivitch said:
Some people seen to be really struggling with the consent thing, so here's a simple video that puts it as simple as a normal person should ever need.
Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
Brilliant.Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
Evanivitch said:
Some people seen to be really struggling with the consent thing, so here's a simple video that puts it as simple as a normal person should ever need.
Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
I think in certain circumstances people decide afterwards they don't like the tea, and with hindsight claim they didn't ask for it in the first place Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
simoid said:
I think in certain circumstances people decide afterwards they don't like the tea, and with hindsight claim they didn't ask for it in the first place
And then it's in the ability of our justice system to prosecute these people for false allegations and wasting police time.I don't like how that often means the accused can be presumed guilty by the press/society, but I see little alternative.
simoid said:
I think in certain circumstances people decide afterwards they don't like the tea, and with hindsight claim they didn't ask for it in the first place
The principle of consent is designed for the benefit of society, and it's not a guarantee of protection for the individual. Ultimately, you have to try and make a judgement about who you want to make tea for and who you don't. If you choose to make tea for anyone willing to drink it, and end up having loads of tea with people you've only just met, there's a greater chance you'll end up having tea with a liar. TwigtheWonderkid said:
The principle of consent is designed for the benefit of society, and it's not a guarantee of protection for the individual. Ultimately, you have to try and make a judgement about who you want to make tea for and who you don't. If you choose to make tea for anyone willing to drink it, and end up having loads of tea with people you've only just met, there's a greater chance you'll end up having tea with a liar.
Leave me out of it, my teapot is, er, exclusive!Evanivitch said:
Some people seen to be really struggling with the consent thing, so here's a simple video that puts it as simple as a normal person should ever need.
Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
I like the Thames Valley Police version and they kept the little joke in at the end... how lewd.Sex, it's like Tea.
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
Retrial in October, in Cardiff: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3612345/Ch...
High quality journalism from the Daily Wail:
Headline: "rape victim will be forced to face him in court for a second time"
Text: "the alleged victim will appear in court to give evidence, but will be hidden behind a screen"
High quality journalism from the Daily Wail:
Headline: "rape victim will be forced to face him in court for a second time"
Text: "the alleged victim will appear in court to give evidence, but will be hidden behind a screen"
PurpleTurtle said:
Retrial in October, in Cardiff: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3612345/Ch...
High quality journalism from the Daily Wail:
Headline: "rape victim will be forced to face him in court for a second time"
Text: "the alleged victim will appear in court to give evidence, but will be hidden behind a screen"
She can be hidden from the public gallery and reporters by a screen, but visible to Evans and the court people, can't she? High quality journalism from the Daily Wail:
Headline: "rape victim will be forced to face him in court for a second time"
Text: "the alleged victim will appear in court to give evidence, but will be hidden behind a screen"
That would be my take on it.
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