Clarke Carlisle fighting for his life...
Discussion
LoonR1 said:
My issue is that Carlisle has caused the death of another person by his actions. That's my issue.
I don't care much for CC, but that's hardly his fault. How is he to know that his suicide attempt would cause someone else to commit suicide. And the bloke who has committed suicide, if his mum commits suicide because her son has killed himself, it that CC's fault, or her son's?TwigtheWonderkid said:
I don't care much for CC, but that's hardly his fault. How is he to know that his suicide attempt would cause someone else to commit suicide. And the bloke who has committed suicide, if his mum commits suicide because her son has killed himself, it that CC's fault, or her son's?
We could argue proximity and cause all night bs office to say IMO it's unlikely that he'd have killed himself had he not witnesses what he did. Your opinion may differ, mine won't change. Many years ago my best friend's Mother took her own life. I had known her from a very early age and from the outside she had the perfect life. A good job, a large house, two loving and intelligent sons, a good social life, nothing to worry about. But she was plagued by periods of very dark depression where logic and normal thinking became almost impossible. There was something inside her that ate away at every fibre of her being. She knew for many years that she was in trouble and she sought help from everywhere. She tried to "deal with it", as you so eloquently put it, the extent of which my Mother revealed a few years after the event. Being her GP my Mother was privy to information regarding her treatment. She was classified as someone who was beyond help, it wasn't a case of if, it was a case of when. Such is the nature of mental illness that no-one really knew, or does know why she was inflicted with these feelings, but believe me, there was nothing that anyone could say or do to stop them, nor was there anything anyone could do when the day came when she walked out into the sea only to be washed up a few days later. Neither her sons of anyone who knew her thought her suicide was selfish.
My own Father has gone though difficult periods of depression since we lost my Brother in a car crash over a decade ago. It wasn't his fault, or anyones for that matter, but the pain has sometimes made it hard for him to have any hope. Again, mental illness seems to defy logic. Thankfully he has came through it, we dealt with it as a family, but not everyone is that lucky.
Anyway, I'm probably wasting my breath, compassion is lost in some people. I'd genuinely love it if the world was so black and white, but it isn't and the most important thing you can do as a human being is to take a step back and see things from another's point of view.
My own Father has gone though difficult periods of depression since we lost my Brother in a car crash over a decade ago. It wasn't his fault, or anyones for that matter, but the pain has sometimes made it hard for him to have any hope. Again, mental illness seems to defy logic. Thankfully he has came through it, we dealt with it as a family, but not everyone is that lucky.
Anyway, I'm probably wasting my breath, compassion is lost in some people. I'd genuinely love it if the world was so black and white, but it isn't and the most important thing you can do as a human being is to take a step back and see things from another's point of view.
She killed herself. She didn't do it in such a way that someone else was swept up in her attempt to kill herself and they subsequently killed themselves.
I understand some people are suicidal. I understand some people will commit suicide. I understand some will try and fail.
What I can't condone is that failure leading to someone else committing suicide and there being no moral repercussions.
I understand some people are suicidal. I understand some people will commit suicide. I understand some will try and fail.
What I can't condone is that failure leading to someone else committing suicide and there being no moral repercussions.
LoonR1 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I don't care much for CC, but that's hardly his fault. How is he to know that his suicide attempt would cause someone else to commit suicide. And the bloke who has committed suicide, if his mum commits suicide because her son has killed himself, it that CC's fault, or her son's?
We could argue proximity and cause all night bs office to say IMO it's unlikely that he'd have killed himself had he not witnesses what he did. Your opinion may differ, mine won't change. In insurance terms, it's like running into the back of someone, and them been blamed because they missed out on buying their lotto ticket because of the crash and their numbers came up.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
You are right, I'm sure seeing what he saw was key. But that can't be blamed on Carlisle. It's reasonable to expect that someone witnessing a suicide attempt might be shocked and upset, but it's not reasonable to think that they will go on to commit suicide themselves.
In insurance terms, it's like running into the back of someone, and them been blamed because they missed out on buying their lotto ticket because of the crash and their numbers came up.
As soon as I mentioned proximate cause I know you were going to use the Lotto ticket example In insurance terms, it's like running into the back of someone, and them been blamed because they missed out on buying their lotto ticket because of the crash and their numbers came up.
I really struggle with someone doing what Carlisle did and there being no moral impact. It's horrific when you look at the simple facts. Whatever his
Mitigation it still doesn't justify the outcome.
LoonR1 said:
As soon as I mentioned proximate cause I know you were going to use the Lotto ticket example
I really struggle with someone doing what Carlisle did and there being no moral impact. It's horrific when you look at the simple facts. Whatever his
Mitigation it still doesn't justify the outcome.
I don't imagine Carlisle had any other outcome in mind other than ending his own life. The subsequent actions of others are there responsibility, not Carlisle's. I really struggle with someone doing what Carlisle did and there being no moral impact. It's horrific when you look at the simple facts. Whatever his
Mitigation it still doesn't justify the outcome.
Am I the only one thinking that if the chap who came to help has now taken his own life, surely he must have had something going on too? It's not a normal thing to do, is it?
I sit somewhere between the two arguments. I can't help but look at CC and blame him for it. To take your own life is one thing, but to knowingly involve someone else whose life you may well change for the worse (truck driver) in your bid? I dunno, I can't get my head around it. He's obviously decided how he wants to take his life, and at some point he will have had to make a decision that this is the way he's going to go. If you jump in front of a moving vehicle, someone will be in it. You're going to involve someone.
If you're in the state of mind where you've got no regard for anyone else's well being, surely you're a danger, whether it's your fault or not?
I'm sure if I knew all the facts I'd think differently, but that's my gut view.
I sit somewhere between the two arguments. I can't help but look at CC and blame him for it. To take your own life is one thing, but to knowingly involve someone else whose life you may well change for the worse (truck driver) in your bid? I dunno, I can't get my head around it. He's obviously decided how he wants to take his life, and at some point he will have had to make a decision that this is the way he's going to go. If you jump in front of a moving vehicle, someone will be in it. You're going to involve someone.
If you're in the state of mind where you've got no regard for anyone else's well being, surely you're a danger, whether it's your fault or not?
I'm sure if I knew all the facts I'd think differently, but that's my gut view.
Kitchski said:
Am I the only one thinking that if the chap who came to help has now taken his own life, surely he must have had something going on too? It's not a normal thing to do, is it?
I sit somewhere between the two arguments. I can't help but look at CC and blame him for it. To take your own life is one thing, but to knowingly involve someone else whose life you may well change for the worse (truck driver) in your bid? I dunno, I can't get my head around it. He's obviously decided how he wants to take his life, and at some point he will have had to make a decision that this is the way he's going to go. If you jump in front of a moving vehicle, someone will be in it. You're going to involve someone.
If you're in the state of mind where you've got no regard for anyone else's well being, surely you're a danger, whether it's your fault or not?
I'm sure if I knew all the facts I'd think differently, but that's my gut view.
Thing is, you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who is normal, and can think in a normal logical way. People who throw themselves in front of a moving lorry, or off a bridge generally aren't thinking in that sort of way.I sit somewhere between the two arguments. I can't help but look at CC and blame him for it. To take your own life is one thing, but to knowingly involve someone else whose life you may well change for the worse (truck driver) in your bid? I dunno, I can't get my head around it. He's obviously decided how he wants to take his life, and at some point he will have had to make a decision that this is the way he's going to go. If you jump in front of a moving vehicle, someone will be in it. You're going to involve someone.
If you're in the state of mind where you've got no regard for anyone else's well being, surely you're a danger, whether it's your fault or not?
I'm sure if I knew all the facts I'd think differently, but that's my gut view.
Cause and effect isn't considered.
happychap said:
Out of interest, what do you think he has been let off with, and how would you want him reprimanded or punished.
Morally. I keep using the word "morally". I'd like him to be shunned by the media, instead he'll be feted by the BBC. Get a show about depression, a show about being a black footballer and multiple vox pops whenever a quote is needed. That's it. No police biollocks, just zero publicity.
andrewparker said:
So he should be punished for suffering with a mental illness? You're not making much sense here... are you saying the Media glamorise the subject?
Let's have yet another go. I'm saying that as a result of his actions someone has committed suicide, whether direct, or indirect that has happened. As a result, I would like to see him be shunned by the media. In other words, there is no consequence of his actions.
Now, it's clear that you, or someone close to you has suffered mental illness and I'm not saying all mental illness sufferers should be treated this way, just this one due to what has happened to the van driver.
Clear?
LoonR1 said:
I'm just going to put this on here again. I have no sympathy for people who choose to to ruin others lives, by their own selfish actions.
It all stems back to this. This is what I have a problem with. Two words; choose and selfish. That's what proves you have such little understanding of the subject. You're the person sat in their car on the M62 pleading with someone stood on a bridge to "get on with it" so it doesn't ruin your day. You're void of any compassion.The last I'll say on the matter is good luck to you if you or anyone you love suffers in the same way. It's then that you'll be pleading with people to shown some understanding and compassion.
andrewparker said:
It all stems back to this. This is what I have a problem with. Two words; choose and selfish. That's what proves you have such little understanding of the subject. You're the person sat in their car on the M62 pleading with someone stood on a bridge to "get on with it" so it doesn't ruin your day. You're void of any compassion.
The last I'll say on the matter is good luck to you if you or anyone you love suffers in the same way. It's then that you'll be pleading with people to shown some understanding and compassion.
That is absolutely ridiculous. How can you say I'm devoid of compassion, when I'm the only one thinking of the van driver?The last I'll say on the matter is good luck to you if you or anyone you love suffers in the same way. It's then that you'll be pleading with people to shown some understanding and compassion.
I know many who have suffered and I've helped quite a few too. What I want to know is why you're some sort of white knight defending CC and not even vaguely interested in the van driver? You posted the link then seem to be all defensive about the potential
Key trigger in all of this.
Carlisle was on Sunday Morning Live today and made lots of great points about depression and suicide; and also spoke a fair bit about Jesus and god.
Yet nothing, not a single word, about the lorry driver whose life he partially ruined and not a mention at all about the van driver who had to swerve to avoid him and was so traumatised by the incident he took his own life recently.
It's all about Clarke, Clarke and Clarke!
Yet nothing, not a single word, about the lorry driver whose life he partially ruined and not a mention at all about the van driver who had to swerve to avoid him and was so traumatised by the incident he took his own life recently.
It's all about Clarke, Clarke and Clarke!
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