Will VAR Change Football for the Better?

[johnboy1975]

wazztie16 said:

Adam. said:

Or are refs not giving decisions as they know they have VAR as back up?

If they missed a KMD - Key Match Decision in real time, and VAR sent them to the screen, and they gave the decision, the referee would be marked accordingly in their observation report.

And unless it was an extremely difficult decision, maybe one they weren't expected to see (player running across their path at the moment of offence for example), it wouldn't be pleasant for the referee post match.

Isn't it the point that VAR doesn't send them to the screen because it's not "clear and obvious"? Probably not at "key match decision" level, but at the level below... therefore we get "the player was lucky to get away with that" etc

[johnboy1975]

Mad Euro qualifier sequence:

https://twitter.com/ViaplaySportsUK/status/1770879...

said:

Georgia's appeal for a penalty is waved away, Gerson Rodrigues scores what Luxembourg think is an equaliser, but then play is brought back for VAR to look at the earlier incident which leads to a red card but no penalty (and goal ruled out)

Correct decision, though harsh on Luxembourg. Surely without VAR play would have been stopped at the foul? Although the question is whether he missed it completely (Should have gone to Specsavers...) or was relying on VAR (another bugbear of mine) as he seemed happy to wave play on.

Closer to home:

johnboy1975 said:

Isn't it the point that VAR doesn't send them to the screen because it's not "clear and obvious"? Probably not at "key match decision" level, but at the level below... therefore we get "the player was lucky to get away with that" etc

Case in point, the high challenge by Doku deemed not to be a clear and obvious error, although it was very much a "key match decision", coming in injury time at 1-1 in a pivotal title game (City Vs Liverpool)

Here's Howard Webb explaining that "both players went in high" and "Doku got the ball so that's fine" and "not enough evidence" before countering with "VAR wouldn't have overturned the decision if the ref had given a penalty"

Tricky one admittedly, especially given the situation, but the foot is clearly high for me, I'd argue he didn't get the ball, or maybe just skimmed it, which doesn't matter anyway - your follow through can still be a foul (Does HW know the rules?).

So, for clarity, I'd give the penalty. VAR seemed scared to overrule Michael Oliver (another bugbear)


https://youtu.be/X3JQhTjr-l4?si=AQmoAIKqvrSYCOQt

[TEKNOPUG]

It's quite simple really:

The referee makes a subjective decision. VAR subjectively reviews the referee's subjective decision to subjectively decide to what degree the referee's subjective decision was correct. The referee then subjectively reviews his initial subjective decision (which has already been subjectively reviewed by VAR and determined that the original degree of subjectively was incorrect (subjectively)) and then makes another subjective decision.

So as you can see, having 4 people make 4 separate subjective decisions is much better than 1 person making 1 subjective decision....

[Tycho]

TEKNOPUG said:

It's quite simple really:

The referee makes a subjective decision. VAR subjectively reviews the referee's subjective decision to subjectively decide to what degree the referee's subjective decision was correct. The referee then subjectively reviews his initial subjective decision (which has already been subjectively reviewed by VAR and determined that the original degree of subjectively was incorrect (subjectively)) and then makes another subjective decision.

So as you can see, having 4 people make 4 separate subjective decisions is much better than 1 person making 1 subjective decision....

Don't forget that when all 4 people look at multiple video replays and still get it wrong then their boss comes on TV and shows the video while telling us that it doesn't show what it shows and we are all wrong.

Now this may be a coincidence but it does seem to happen when certain teams are playing and they get favourable decisions or their rivals are playing and don't get favourable decisions. This may or may not be linked to the referees in those games having been paid to referee for certain teams owners brothers league in another country.

[LimmerickLad]

"Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better." - Bill Shankly.

[johnboy1975]

TEKNOPUG said:

It's quite simple really:

The referee makes a subjective decision. VAR subjectively reviews the referee's subjective decision to subjectively decide to what degree the referee's subjective decision was correct. The referee then subjectively reviews his initial subjective decision (which has already been subjectively reviewed by VAR and determined that the original degree of subjectively was incorrect (subjectively)) and then makes another subjective decision.

So as you can see, having 4 people make 4 separate subjective decisions is much better than 1 person making 1 subjective decision....

I'd agree (subjectivity being another bugbear of mine ) - but whether that foot was high (and therefore dangerous) isn't up for debate IMO

To claim "both players went in high" is laughable. Where's Mccallister's chest meant to be??

To claim "he got the ball so no further action" is also laughable (and shows a clear lack of understanding about the rules) which is what most of the chatter between the ref and the VARs boils down to. I forget the Liverpool player sent off for his follow through (Vs Tottenham in the disallowed onside goal game) - Curtis Jones I think?

Oh and "Mccallister's come into his space" (VAR) [HW -"Mccallister's come into him"] - so it's good to know that, as a defender, you can defend "your space" with a foot 5 ft off the ground

Can the players hear the ref's side of the conversation? At certain times I guess. Might be worth sticking a man on him to stay "in the loop"

[coldel]

Semi Automated Offside Tech coming next season as voted in by the Premier League

[mickk]

coldel said:

Semi Automated Offside Tech coming next season as voted in by the Premier League

Oh great.

[coldel]

mickk said:

coldel said:

Semi Automated Offside Tech coming next season as voted in by the Premier League

Oh great.

Presume it will automatically draw the lines instead of having people fannying around drawing them so the call can be made much quicker.

[mickk]

coldel said:

mickk said:

coldel said:

Semi Automated Offside Tech coming next season as voted in by the Premier League

Oh great.

Presume it will automatically draw the lines instead of having people fannying around drawing them so the call can be made much quicker.

People in the stadium need updating, I doubt they'll see the lines.

[Skyedriver]

Before VAR there were some dreadful refereeing errors.
There still is.
They get one chance to see what happened and there's always the possibility that someone blocked his view or he was watching someone off the ball flattening an opponent.
With so much TV coverage from every angle under the sun it's easy for the TV viewer to criticise.

There's always push and shove in the goalmouth during a corner. In some games the same incident goes unchecked, in others the slightest nudge gets the game stopped. Either for a penalty or a free kick or a goal. Even happens in a single match, two identical incidents, different result. There's no "level playing field".
Two players go for a ball, one gets there a split second quicker and his foot between the other player and the ball and gets kicked as a result. Deliberate attempt to be fouled or just a quicker reaction? Seen both decisions recently.

VAR should help the referee but unfortunately, decisions are made with little regard for deciding the same result from similar situations. Is it VAR not getting involved or the referee ignoring VAR. It should help but is the outside influence allowing manipulation?

[LF5335]

Skyedriver said:

Before VAR there were some dreadful refereeing errors.
There still is.
They get one chance to see what happened and there's always the possibility that someone blocked his view or he was watching someone off the ball flattening an opponent.
With so much TV coverage from every angle under the sun it's easy for the TV viewer to criticise.

There's always push and shove in the goalmouth during a corner. In some games the same incident goes unchecked, in others the slightest nudge gets the game stopped. Either for a penalty or a free kick or a goal. Even happens in a single match, two identical incidents, different result. There's no "level playing field".
Two players go for a ball, one gets there a split second quicker and his foot between the other player and the ball and gets kicked as a result. Deliberate attempt to be fouled or just a quicker reaction? Seen both decisions recently.

VAR should help the referee but unfortunately, decisions are made with little regard for deciding the same result from similar situations. Is it VAR not getting involved or the referee ignoring VAR. It should help but is the outside influence allowing manipulation?

This is particularly annoying as it’s obvious the attacker has no intention of the ball, just putting his foot somewhere that it will most likely get kicked and get a penalty as a result. Awarding penalties is fine when it’s for a foul on an attacker trying to score or attack, but not when they’re just playing for a penalty with zero intention of playing the ball.

[coldel]

The Gordon penalty for instance against West Ham (I dont believe I am looking at this with rose tinted glasses either) is a good example of where an attacker tried to engineer a penalty. Look at it this way, if it was up the other end and Phillips was taking a shot, that would be called a stonewall penalty for West Ham and probably a minimum yellow card for Gordon for a tackle from behind. I also agree with and hate the wrestling at corners that goes on, how it has suddenly appeared in the last couple of seasons, it is utterly ridiculous as if you did the same in the centre circle its a freekick all day long.

[wazztie16]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68796858

Not seen anything on this, but the Wolves disallowed goal at the weekend caused a bit of a stir amongst Social Media etc...

Turns out they actually got it right at the time (which referees up and down the land would've known all along).

Match of the Day not helping things by being critical of the decision.

How anyone could say the player in the offside position WASN'T interfering with an opponent is beyond me!

[johnboy1975]

wazztie16 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68796858

Not seen anything on this, but the Wolves disallowed goal at the weekend caused a bit of a stir amongst Social Media etc...

Turns out they actually got it right at the time (which referees up and down the land would've known all along).

Match of the Day not helping things by being critical of the decision.

How anyone could say the player in the offside position WASN'T interfering with an opponent is beyond me!

Definite +1 from me. People saying the keeper should have moved from his nice central position in order to gain a better view are nuts

Wasn't it Clough who said "if you're not interfering with play what are you doing on the pitch"?

[RichB]

johnboy1975 said:

wazztie16 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68796858

Not seen anything on this, but the Wolves disallowed goal at the weekend caused a bit of a stir amongst Social Media etc...

Turns out they actually got it right at the time (which referees up and down the land would've known all along).

Match of the Day not helping things by being critical of the decision.

How anyone could say the player in the offside position WASN'T interfering with an opponent is beyond me!

Definite +1 from me. People saying the keeper should have moved from his nice central position in order to gain a better view are nuts
Wasn't it Clough who said "if you're not interfering with play what are you doing on the pitch"?

It was Harry Redknapp. And yes I agree, stood bang slap in front of the goalie is interfering.

[johnboy1975]

RichB said:

It was Harry Redknapp. And yes I agree, stood bang slap in front of the goalie is interfering.

Google says

said:

Determining whether a player is "involved in active play" can be complex. The quote, "If he's not interfering with play, what's he doing on the pitch?" has been attributed to Bill Nicholson and Danny Blanchflower

Also A-Zquotes has Brian Clough credited.

Can't find a citation for Harry, but doubtless it exists. Going by the time periods involved, he wasn't the first though

Anyway, sorry for the digression

[LimmerickLad]

RichB said:

johnboy1975 said:

wazztie16 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68796858

Not seen anything on this, but the Wolves disallowed goal at the weekend caused a bit of a stir amongst Social Media etc...

Turns out they actually got it right at the time (which referees up and down the land would've known all along).

Match of the Day not helping things by being critical of the decision.

How anyone could say the player in the offside position WASN'T interfering with an opponent is beyond me!

Definite +1 from me. People saying the keeper should have moved from his nice central position in order to gain a better view are nuts
Wasn't it Clough who said "if you're not interfering with play what are you doing on the pitch"?

It was Harry Redknapp. And yes I agree, stood bang slap in front of the goalie is interfering.

As do I but the I would

[RichB]

johnboy1975 said:

RichB said:

It was Harry Redknapp. And yes I agree, stood bang slap in front of the goalie is interfering.

Google says

said:

Determining whether a player is "involved in active play" can be complex. The quote, "If he's not interfering with play, what's he doing on the pitch?" has been attributed to Bill Nicholson and Danny Blanchflower

Also A-Zquotes has Brian Clough credited.

Can't find a citation for Harry, but doubtless it exists. Going by the time periods involved, he wasn't the first though

Anyway, sorry for the digression

except the 'interfering with play' part of the offside rule was only introduced long after Nicholson and Blanchflower were playing or managing and I expect even after Clough. In the '70s you were offside regardless of where you stood. I remember Harry saying it being interviewed by the side of a training ground on a Saturday morning football programme. Of corse, he may have copied from someone else!

[johnboy1975]

RichB said:

xcept the 'interfering with play' part of the offside rule was only introduced long after Nicholson and Blanchflower were playing or managing and I expect even after Clough. In the '70s you were offside regardless of where you stood. I remember Harry saying it being interviewed by the side of a training ground on a Saturday morning football programme. Of corse, he may have copied from someone else!

They were visionaries, ahead of their time

TBH, if you're offside and ",not interfering with play" you are still making the defence and keeper behave differently. (Several cases of VAR determining if a player was off by trying to work out if he touched the ball...misses the point, the defender was tracking back with him. I can't recall the couple of "famous" ones we've had this season, one possibly involved Man Utd??) - And then of course you have "well it was given last week, why not this week"

So, for me, they (and the original rules) had it right. When was it changed - pre VAR or at the point VAR was introduced? (I can't recall)

(NB probably a bit of nuance in that if you're down injured you might not be interfering with play. Seem to recall you were still "off" under the old rules)