The Lionesses - England Football Team

[philv]

Driver101 said:

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

I believe it's already been pointed out that the pool of players in the women's game has not been representative. And the evidence of outcomes when compared to men's football or (for instance) women's athletics also asks questions.

I'd be interested to see the studies into this. Any links?

Edit: a quick look suggests that just under 10% of the elite football pool are from diverse ethnic backgrounds and there is an 18% representation in the nation. To be honest without looking at similar statistics I don't know if that is about right, sub-par or evidence of a lack of inclusivity.

Edited by selym on Monday 21st August 20:52

When 44% of players in the EPL are black less than 10% in the women's game does look oddly low.

Then we should also be asking why there isn't a higher proportion of white men playing in the EPL.

[selym]

Driver101 said:

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

I believe it's already been pointed out that the pool of players in the women's game has not been representative. And the evidence of outcomes when compared to men's football or (for instance) women's athletics also asks questions.

I'd be interested to see the studies into this. Any links?

Edit: a quick look suggests that just under 10% of the elite football pool are from diverse ethnic backgrounds and there is an 18% representation in the nation. To be honest without looking at similar statistics I don't know if that is about right, sub-par or evidence of a lack of inclusivity.

Edited by selym on Monday 21st August 20:52

When 44% of players in the EPL are black less than 10% in the women's game does look oddly low.

Bear in mind the relatively recent take up of women's football in comparison to men's football, this might be a factor.

[SWoll]

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

I believe it's already been pointed out that the pool of players in the women's game has not been representative. And the evidence of outcomes when compared to men's football or (for instance) women's athletics also asks questions.

I'd be interested to see the studies into this. Any links?

Edit: a quick look suggests that just under 10% of the elite football pool are from diverse ethnic backgrounds and there is an 18% representation in the nation. To be honest without looking at similar statistics I don't know if that is about right, sub-par or evidence of a lack of inclusivity.

Edited by selym on Monday 21st August 20:52

You need to think it through.

The majority of that 18% is made up of groups/cultures where football is of little interest in either the men's or women's game (9% Indian subcontinent) and there will also be quite a number in there that wouldn't qualify as English either.

Driver101 said:

When 44% of players in the EPL are black less than 10% in the women's game does look oddly low.

And again, think it through. The vast majority of that 44% are foreign players who have moved to the UK in order to play for PL clubs. I doubt the women's game has quite the same pull, and foreign players have no relevance to the diversity of the England squad anyway?

I'm all for equal opportunity and if that isn't the case it 100% needs to be dealt with, but suggesting that is definitely the case by throwing around statistics that given any thought don't lead to that conclusion doesn't help anyone IMHO.

Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 22 August 07:49

[selym]

SWoll said:

You need to think it through.

The majority of that 18% is made up of groups/cultures where football is of little interest in either the men's or women's game (9% Indian subcontinent) and there will also be quite a number in there that wouldn't qualify as English either..

Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 22 August 07:49

As I said, it was a quick look. I may not have emphasized the fact but I'm not going knee-jerk on whether women's football is inclusive of not; I'm waiting on some proper evidence. I'm not sure it is an issue - all that women's football needs to do is be better at inclusivity than men's football was. Noting mens football went through it many decades ago.

[coldel]

See, it was an actual fair question. Because the answer is complex and needs understanding, and if it is going to be more representative and give opportunity for all backgrounds to succeed more understanding is needed. The question was never implying that there is a racial bias in selection.

If you spend time to google (as suggested) there are some great research papers about why there is a low racial diversity in womens England football. One mentions about a number of things:

Location, often even elite clubs do not allow access to local training facilities for women. For instance Birminghams womens team train in stratford, ethnically diverse groups tend to be lower income and making the journey between ground and training on a regular basis is a challenge one report found and dropped potentially a biased group out of the pool - this is much more likely to happen for parents of girls than it is for parents of boys
Another spoke about school and opportunities, where free schooling often pushes girls into indoor sports like basketball (which does show more diversity) but to become a top footballer you need extra curicular training for girls which costs money, which again comes down to ethnic groups having less opportunities due to the bias towards lower income for ethnically diverse groups

Thats just a couple of things one report found, there are plenty more, you just need to dig it out.

[rjfp1962]

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

[Castrol for a knave]

coldel said:

See, it was an actual fair question. Because the answer is complex and needs understanding, and if it is going to be more representative and give opportunity for all backgrounds to succeed more understanding is needed. The question was never implying that there is a racial bias in selection.

If you spend time to google (as suggested) there are some great research papers about why there is a low racial diversity in womens England football. One mentions about a number of things:

Location, often even elite clubs do not allow access to local training facilities for women. For instance Birminghams womens team train in stratford, ethnically diverse groups tend to be lower income and making the journey between ground and training on a regular basis is a challenge one report found and dropped potentially a biased group out of the pool - this is much more likely to happen for parents of girls than it is for parents of boys
Another spoke about school and opportunities, where free schooling often pushes girls into indoor sports like basketball (which does show more diversity) but to become a top footballer you need extra curicular training for girls which costs money, which again comes down to ethnic groups having less opportunities due to the bias towards lower income for ethnically diverse groups

Thats just a couple of things one report found, there are plenty more, you just need to dig it out.

Very much this.

As someone who has worked with the FA/FF and written investment papers into grass roots football, the bridge between playing at local, youth team level and academy and professional is heavily influenced by parental time and money.

We found that in many places, players from ethnic minority backgrounds often outweighed white children. Interestingly, female players of Indian heritage were quite well represented.

The disconnect was getting from local almost street level coached game to semi and professional levels. Academies are often located in areas that can be hard to reach on public transport (with a few notable exceptions and a worthy mention to Villa for actually building an urban academy). This requires money and often parental time to pick up and drop off.

Kids from more disadvantaged and urban backgrounds tend not work up the football ladder and are ultimately, not given the profile to be picked up for the professional game.

It therefore requires a cohort of well organised lower league sides, linking with schools and County FA to make sure their kids are coached properly and they link to the community football operations at the professional clubs.

It's getting there, much better than it was 25 years ago, but I would argue the women's game is probably where the men's was circa 2005.

It is therefore an entirely fair question, with complex and nuanced answers and one best left alone by culture warriors on both sides of the fence.

[Super superb]

Actually about 5% of the country is black that is 1 in 20. One should actually ask why teams are not representative of their community which they aren't they if anything are over represented especially in the male team. And arguably the females team has done better with a more representative team. Personally I don't give a crap about someone's ethnicity but if people are going to be silly over it and go for pc point scoring then it's only fair to point this out. As I say we'll done lionesses I donth think your ethnicity matters whoever is playing so long as their English.

[Bonefish Blues]

rjfp1962 said:

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

This is disappointing:

Fans waited in the terminal to greet the team but they left without going through the arrivals area.

[RichB]

Bonefish Blues said:

This is disappointing:

Fans waited in the terminal to greet the team but they left without going through the arrivals area.

Certainly and odd decision!?!? They have nothing to hide away from.

[anonymoususer]

rjfp1962 said:

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

Shame
It would have been good to celebrate their victory

[Randy Winkman]

Super superb said:

Actually about 5% of the country is black that is 1 in 20. One should actually ask why teams are not representative of their community which they aren't they if anything are over represented especially in the male team. And arguably the females team has done better with a more representative team. Personally I don't give a crap about someone's ethnicity but if people are going to be silly over it and go for pc point scoring then it's only fair to point this out. As I say we'll done lionesses I donth think your ethnicity matters whoever is playing so long as their English.

UK athletics is well over represented with regards black people as is athletics in many other countries such as the US. Perhaps over representation in men's football is for the same reason? Not saying that's OK though, perhaps it isn't.

[G-wiz]

Have you seen the parking charges at Heathrow?

That alone puts me off.

[AlexRS2782]

Bonefish Blues said:

rjfp1962 said:

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

This is disappointing:

Fans waited in the terminal to greet the team but they left without going through the arrivals area.

I've saw that covered on a couple of outlets earlier going on about all the disappointed people that were evidently left hanging around in limbo for "hours" in the arrivals area, despite the team having already arrived and then left.

As far as i can tell, from a bit of a search online, what happened seems to be the now pretty much standard sports / celebrity transit due to security, etc, concerns? It seems the last couple of overseas tournaments the mens team did the same, out of the plane and then out via the private entrance / exit access routes to get onto their next form of transport out of the airport.

Let's be honest, Heathrow (those that run it) would have known full well the team weren't going through the public terminal and were going out via the pre agreed route - so why not just tell the people that turn up they aren't going to see anyone to prevent wasting their time? Still if a simple Google search reveals what happened with previous sports people / events, they could probably have avoided the wasted trip anyway

Instead you get left with some lame news reports featuring a couple of people that had turned up being interviewed and saying how disappointed / let down they or their kids are, etc, talking about all the effort or £££ they spent to go there - as though it was some sort of deliberate decision to ps off fans - when the reality was that they were never going via the public anyway

Non story, but i guess it filled a bit of time on the Tuesday news cycle - and as a guy further above mentioned, i wonder how much the parking contractors made in £££ from the parking fees from all those that turned up

Edited by AlexRS2782 on Tuesday 22 August 23:31

[RichB]

AlexRS2782 said:

Bonefish Blues said:

rjfp1962 said:

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

This is disappointing:

Fans waited in the terminal to greet the team but they left without going through the arrivals area.

I've saw that covered on a couple of outlets earlier going on about all the disappointed people that were evidently left hanging around in limbo for "hours" in the arrivals area, despite the team having already arrived and then left.

As far as i can tell, from a bit of a search online, what happened seems to be the now pretty much standard sports / celebrity transit due to security, etc, concerns? It seems the last couple of overseas tournaments the mens team did the same, out of the plane and then out via the private entrance / exit access routes to get onto their next form of transport out of the airport.

Let's be honest, Heathrow would have known full well the team weren't going through the public terminal and were going out via the pre agreed route - why not tell the people that turn up they aren't going to see anyone? Instead you get left with some lame news reports featuring a couple of people that had turned up being interviewed and saying how disappointed / let down they or their kids are, etc, talking about all the effort or £££ they spent to go there - as though it was some sort of deliberate decision to ps off fans

It certainly seems like an own goal

[Randy Winkman]

AlexRS2782 said:

Bonefish Blues said:

rjfp1962 said:

Lionesses had a low-key arrival back home this morning....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66578604

This is disappointing:

Fans waited in the terminal to greet the team but they left without going through the arrivals area.

I've saw that covered on a couple of outlets earlier going on about all the disappointed people that were evidently left hanging around in limbo for "hours" in the arrivals area, despite the team having already arrived and then left.

As far as i can tell, from a bit of a search online, what happened seems to be the now pretty much standard sports / celebrity transit due to security, etc, concerns? It seems the last couple of overseas tournaments the mens team did the same, out of the plane and then out via the private entrance / exit access routes to get onto their next form of transport out of the airport.

Let's be honest, Heathrow (those that run it) would have known full well the team weren't going through the public terminal and were going out via the pre agreed route - so why not just tell the people that turn up they aren't going to see anyone to prevent wasting their time? Still if a simple Google search reveals what happened with previous sports people / events, they could probably have avoided the wasted trip anyway

Instead you get left with some lame news reports featuring a couple of people that had turned up being interviewed and saying how disappointed / let down they or their kids are, etc, talking about all the effort or £££ they spent to go there - as though it was some sort of deliberate decision to ps off fans - when the reality was that they were never going via the public anyway

Non story, but i guess it filled a bit of time on the Tuesday news cycle - and as a guy further above mentioned, i wonder how much the parking contractors made in £££ from the parking fees from all those that turned up

Edited by AlexRS2782 on Tuesday 22 August 23:31

Bad reflection on Heathrow airport.

[selym]

Randy Winkman said:

Bad reflection on Heathrow airport.

The team could have made an appearance out front, those who attended could have looked at previous form and realised the team wouldn't appear - you can't put all the blame on Heathrow.

[Bonefish Blues]

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

Bad reflection on Heathrow airport.

The team could have made an appearance out front, those who attended could have looked at previous form and realised the team wouldn't appear - you can't put all the blame on Heathrow.

Doesn't Heathrow have a specific vip management team or have I made that up?

[Randy Winkman]

Bonefish Blues said:

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

Bad reflection on Heathrow airport.

The team could have made an appearance out front, those who attended could have looked at previous form and realised the team wouldn't appear - you can't put all the blame on Heathrow.

Doesn't Heathrow have a specific vip management team or have I made that up?

I assumed the Heathrow people (I must admit that I don't know who, which might be the problem) would a) know which flight it was b) know if there were people waiting, then c) find out if the players were planning to meet the people.

[selym]

Randy Winkman said:

Bonefish Blues said:

selym said:

Randy Winkman said:

Bad reflection on Heathrow airport.

The team could have made an appearance out front, those who attended could have looked at previous form and realised the team wouldn't appear - you can't put all the blame on Heathrow.

Doesn't Heathrow have a specific vip management team or have I made that up?

I assumed the Heathrow people (I must admit that I don't know who, which might be the problem) would a) know which flight it was b) know if there were people waiting, then c) find out if the players were planning to meet the people.

What do they do with that info? Tell them to go away or tell them to get around the back to see those who aren't meant to be seen?