The Official Manchester United Thread (Vol 12)

[simon800]

Challo said:

I agree he has had a troubled season, but I think there will be a massive improvement next year. Another year in the prem, settled back 4 and he will come into his own.

So going by the article the work done at Ajax, and anaylsis from a former keeper is bks then. He just needs to learn to dive better?

I get what you're saying - who am I to judge whether Onana has flawed technique when this guy has professional GK coaches and former keepers analysing him.

I'm just saying I see with my own eyes a guy who really struggles to get down to low shots, and who seems smaller than his actual size when diving.

Don't forget the famous 804 right backs Man Utd scouted, and decided Wan Bissaka is the best one - the experts don't always get it right.

[CLK-GTR]

simon800 said:

During my time of watching United I have been fortunate enough to see 3 x truly great goalkeepers. Schmeichel, Van Der Sar, De Gea (at his peak)

Onana is a million miles away from those.

We've also had some proper banter goalkeepers. Tim Howard, Fabian Barthez for example. Whatever the save % statistics tell people, my eyes tell me Onana belongs in this 2nd category, not the first one, for now.

If he learns to dive properly then he could improve, but he was bought as a finished article player with a finished article price tag. There have been several goals which wouldn't go down as complete howlers, but he's either dived over the ball, dived too late or dived the opposite direction to where the ball was going.

Then you will remember when De Gea arrived, and when he got dropped for the frequency of his errors.

Van Der Sar was no brilliant shot stopper either. He was so good because of how he organised his defence and how confident he was in coming off his line.

[StuTheGrouch]

LF5335 said:

That’s just a load of stats. More detail is required to see if there’s any substance to it.

Onana not saved 49 on target shots, that’s 49 goals. If 90% of those were within 2 feet of where he was standing compared to 10% being that close for Raya & Ederson then that changes it massively. The same applies in reverse. As does the speed of the shot and / or the proximity of the striker of the ball and so on.

Does this help?



Onana still looks good. For reference, the glossary:

PSxG -- Post-Shot Expected Goals
PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot
xG totals include penalty kicks, but do not include penalty shootouts (unless otherwise noted).

PSxG/SoT -- Post-Shot Expected Goals per Shot on Target
Not including penalty kicks
PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot
Higher numbers indicate that shots on target faced are more difficult to stop and more likely to score

PSxG-GA
Post-Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed
Positive numbers suggest better luck or an above average ability to stop shots
PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot

PSxG-GA/90
Post-Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed per 90 minutes
Positive numbers suggest better luck or an above average ability to stop shots
PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot


The other point of note is the PSxG/SoT stat. This does suggest that teams are shooting on sight, as Onana's number is relatively lower than others.

De Gea's stats below for comparison. The 2017/18 season was clearly saved by him!

[LF5335]

No it doesn’t help.

I’ve also never seen someone score 0.28 of a goal, or any other fraction.

[StuTheGrouch]

LF5335 said:

No it doesn’t help.

I’ve also never seen someone score 0.28 of a goal, or any other fraction.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make the stats any less meaningful.

[57Ford]

Just for balance, I’m of the opinion that he didn’t do too much wrong for either goal last night.
He was given a less than ideal backpass from the right and was looking to play it forwards to whoever was just outside the centre of our box. The surprigly quick press ruled that option out so because he wasn’t set for wellying it up field, he chose to play it to Dalot on the left (who’d probably given him a shout). Unfortunately his pass was therefore rushed and less than perfect so the same speed of attacking pressure cut it out and scored. That was Sheffield’s coordinated press earning it rather than fully Onana’s error.
For their second, he just gambled wrong. If he’d covered the near post, it would have been an easy tap-in for their other forward who was in acres of space. Many keepers would have covered the post and just been beaten anyway by the simple square ball.

I agree he’s not amazing but I don’t think he’s as bad as he was in the first few months of the season. He’s definitely courting the long shots because teams know he does have a clanger in him but he’s also not got the best defence or midfield in front of him.

[LF5335]

StuTheGrouch said:

Your lack of understanding doesn't make the stats any less meaningful.

Your failure to provide the stats I asked for doesn’t make the ones you did provide relevant.

[LF5335]

CLK-GTR said:

Then you will remember when De Gea arrived, and when he got dropped for the frequency of his errors.

Van Der Sar was no brilliant shot stopper either. He was so good because of how he organised his defence and how confident he was in coming off his line.

Has Onana been dropped due to the frequency of his errors?

Does Onana command his defence?

[CLK-GTR]

LF5335 said:

Has Onana been dropped due to the frequency of his errors?

Does Onana command his defence?

No he hasn't. He's played every minute of every game he's been available for.

[classicaholic]

CLK-GTR said:

No he hasn't. He's played every minute of every game he's been available for.

Not for his country - they dropped him like a stone!

[Challo]

classicaholic said:

CLK-GTR said:

No he hasn't. He's played every minute of every game he's been available for.

Not for his country - they dropped him like a stone!

I think that's more due to issues with the manager than anything else

[Challo]

simon800 said:

I get what you're saying - who am I to judge whether Onana has flawed technique when this guy has professional GK coaches and former keepers analysing him.

I'm just saying I see with my own eyes a guy who really struggles to get down to low shots, and who seems smaller than his actual size when diving.

Don't forget the famous 804 right backs Man Utd scouted, and decided Wan Bissaka is the best one - the experts don't always get it right.

Yeah I know, and appreciate people can only make a decision on what they see

[Forester1965]

I'd rather have an average shot stopper but a brilliant communicator and distributor of the ball. If you're reliant on shot stopping you're probably not going to be winning much.

[Challo]

LF5335 said:

That’s just a load of stats. More detail is required to see if there’s any substance to it.

Onana not saved 49 on target shots, that’s 49 goals. If 90% of those were within 2 feet of where he was standing compared to 10% being that close for Raya & Ederson then that changes it massively. The same applies in reverse. As does the speed of the shot and / or the proximity of the striker of the ball and so on.

Yes 49 goals, but looks how many shots he has faced. I have no idea if the chances are easy or hard. That's why you look at data across the season to get an idea if they are doing well or not.

[StuTheGrouch]

Challo said:

LF5335 said:

That’s just a load of stats. More detail is required to see if there’s any substance to it.

Onana not saved 49 on target shots, that’s 49 goals. If 90% of those were within 2 feet of where he was standing compared to 10% being that close for Raya & Ederson then that changes it massively. The same applies in reverse. As does the speed of the shot and / or the proximity of the striker of the ball and so on.

Yes 49 goals, but looks how many shots he has faced. I have no idea if the chances are easy or hard. That's why you look at data across the season to get an idea if they are doing well or not.

See the stats I provided. Specifically this one:

PSxG/SoT -- Post-Shot Expected Goals per Shot on Target
Not including penalty kicks
PSxG is expected goals based on how likely the goalkeeper is to save the shot
Higher numbers indicate that shots on target faced are more difficult to stop and more likely to score

[simon800]

So based on that stats he's about the 6th to 8th best keeper in the league (we should highlight this is the league, and those stats don't include the fact he kept throwing the ball in his own net during the Champions League).

However based on the eye test we also know Ederson and Alisson are far better than him (Alisson at every aspect, Ederson does have a mistake in him but his kicking is a million miles better than Onana's).

So basically he's about the 8th-10th best keeper in the league, around the Pickford/Pope/Neto type level. Which would suggest he's fairly easily upgradeable, though it's not a priority given other issues in the squad.

[G-wiz]

If you listen to Blue Moon, it's actually quite a nice tune.

[GTO-3R]

simon800 said:

So based on that stats he's about the 6th to 8th best keeper in the league (we should highlight this is the league, and those stats don't include the fact he kept throwing the ball in his own net during the Champions League).

However based on the eye test we also know Ederson and Alisson are far better than him (Alisson at every aspect, Ederson does have a mistake in him but his kicking is a million miles better than Onana's).

So basically he's about the 8th-10th best keeper in the league, around the Pickford/Pope/Neto type level. Which would suggest he's fairly easily upgradeable, though it's not a priority given other issues in the squad.

Did you see Allisons "save" against Everton for the first goal the other day? Even the best keepers make errors and Onana isn't immune either.

I think he will come good with a solid CONSISTENT defence in front of him.

[simon800]

Onana chat aside, this game vs Burnley is massive for us.

We have 5 games left after it, all 5 are games we've lost the reverse fixture of this season (Palace/Arsenal/Newcastle/Brighton/City)

Getting a win vs Burnley is essential in that context. They played us off the park at their place so hopefully we have a plan to deal with them.

[Challo]

simon800 said:

So based on that stats he's about the 6th to 8th best keeper in the league (we should highlight this is the league, and those stats don't include the fact he kept throwing the ball in his own net during the Champions League).

However based on the eye test we also know Ederson and Alisson are far better than him (Alisson at every aspect, Ederson does have a mistake in him but his kicking is a million miles better than Onana's).

So basically he's about the 8th-10th best keeper in the league, around the Pickford/Pope/Neto type level. Which would suggest he's fairly easily upgradeable, though it's not a priority given other issues in the squad.

If Onana had started the season well, had a good CL spell and only now had the clangers, you would say he is a good keeper and just struggling with form.

Because Onana started poorly, had a load of clangers and now playing well, your default position is he is rubbish. He might have 5-6 good games, make some cracking saves, but as soon as he makes an error you revert back to your default position.

I know you can only make your opinion based on what you see, but the stats tell a different story. And it a lot of area's he is performing much better than Ederson and Allison this season.

He needs to perform on a consistent basis, and get even better next season and build a back catalog to bring fans round. Any player can be upgraded (unless you have messi for example) but Onana is a good solid keeper and I think with a settled back 4, he will come on leaps and bounds.