Explain Water divining
Discussion
TheHeretic said:
Ali G said:
I don't follow the exploits of Randi or any of the subject matter that concerns his investigations (as you may gather!). But someone who lays $1m on the line could hardly be classified as impartial to the outcome of the tests.
And, no, I've not seen any of the tests - its not an area that I follow.
There would seem, at the very least, and interesting psychological issue where there would appear to be some form of self-delusion both with those that conduct water divination, and those who use the results!
How odd that you would say such a thing, when you seemingly know nothing about the chap in question, the testing methods, or anything else for that matter.And, no, I've not seen any of the tests - its not an area that I follow.
There would seem, at the very least, and interesting psychological issue where there would appear to be some form of self-delusion both with those that conduct water divination, and those who use the results!
The Excession said:
(Although it appears Dubrov is into homeopathy so I'm already beginning to doubt his claims!) 
Tend to classify homeopathy as 'mind over matter' - which in itself is rather an interesting phenomenon..Edited by The Excession on Monday 30th January 21:55
For another day...
(But water cannot retain a 'memory' - at least I don't think it can!)
TheHeretic said:
I never meant it like that! Folks made claims about Randi earlier regarding his methods, and the RDEF tests, etc, but failed to actually mention any times or examples of anything to back up what he was saying. You know much more about Randi that I do.
TheHeretic said:
I never meant it like that! Folks made claims about Randi earlier regarding his methods, and the RDEF tests, etc, but failed to actually mention any times or examples of anything to back up what he was saying. They all agreed the method, in fact they were allowed a great deal of input into designing the tests. I guess confidence got to them all as no one passed!
It's a tough one, all I can say is that the times I've used dowsing and the tests that I played with to see if it works for me have always been 100% successful.
The Excession said:
It's a tough one, all I can say is that the times I've used dowsing and the tests that I played with to see if it works for me have always been 100% successful.
And that's the problem. You would not consider this to be 'woo'.However, I suspect you would not be able to perform under test conditions.
So it must all be crap!
and in my mind I could justify the final outlier - good job my life didn't depend on the final result though eh? 
Ali G said:
And that's the problem. You would not consider this to be 'woo'.
However, I suspect you would not be able to perform under test conditions.
So it must all be crap!
I don't think that's entirely fair, I think there may be something in/to it. Either that or mineral prostecting companies wouldn't employ these people, they'd just point at the map and flip a coin.However, I suspect you would not be able to perform under test conditions.
So it must all be crap!
I think it merits further investigation and I'm keeping an open mind about it.
I really don't believe that if an understanding is found it will be anything woo. I'd be far more inclined to believe that the rods or pendulums used in dowsing are merely an amplifier for some type of neurological signal that some people seem able to tune to aspects of the environment.
So if water diving doesn't work then why
1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
PW said:
It has never been scientifically described, there are no equations that explain it, you can't buy a physics textbook about it, you can't go to Oxford or Cambridge and do a PhD in Dowsing, there are no examples of it being used commercially by any corporation. Yet to say it doesn't work is "plainly wrong" because you and a mate who know all about rigorous scientific experimentation, being in the middle of your A levels and all, tried it 10 times.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Actually it is used by some companies to find water when sinking boreholesI don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Ali G said:
carmonk said:
Dowsing doesn't work, that's been proved. What's interesting is that many people believe it to work and are honestly surprised when they take part in tests and see that it doesn't. In that sense it's different to mediumship, being that most if not all professional mediums are fraudulent and know enough to never put their abilities to any controlled test. It seems that belief in dowsing, by those who do it, is heavily weighted by confirmation bias, in that failures are forgotten and successes remembered.
And for the record I don't mind these things in the science forum, the psychology of belief is very interesting.
The above is very interesting - clearly there are those who beleive that they are not charlatans (see Exec's earlier post) but are unable to demonstrate under test conditions. I don't know if any properly documented 'successful' water divining exercises have taken place - but then again I do not take much of an interest in the generic area of spoon-bending antics in general!And for the record I don't mind these things in the science forum, the psychology of belief is very interesting.
Is this all simply a figment of the imagination of the diviner, or is there something else going on?
From what I can gather, Randi is as much part of the show as an impartial observer.
Why not go see a diviner operating on their own patch and pull what they do to pieces? This may have been done already..
It may be, as you have indicated, that the diviner is just very adept at reading the landscap and tell-tail clues - but determining that fact would in itself be furthering understanding.
To dismiss it all as 'woo' (which I understand is derogative in these circles) doesn't do much to help understand what's going on, although you indicate that your understanding is that there is confirmation bias - which may be valid.
As far as Randi goes, I'm not his greatest fan but there's no bias in the actual tests, the protocols of which are agreed by both parties. The $1m is not his money and I get the impression that in actual fact there's nothing he'd like better than to find a genuine instance of the paranormal and hand over the money. Unfortunately, evidence shows that's not very likely. My criticism of the tests is that, if anything, they are too lax. One of them had a possibility of something like 200:1 of obtaining a positive result by chance, which is very good odds when you think about it. No outlay other than a day of your time for a 200:1 chance of world fame and $1m - I'm surprised more people don't take it up.
The Excession said:
Ali G said:
There would seem, at the very least, and interesting psychological issue where there would appear to be some form of self-delusion both with those that conduct water divination, and those who use the results!
Indeedy... dowsers work along side geologists for most oil exploration teams.thinfourth2 said:
So if water diving doesn't work then why
1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
Diving works, I've done it, it's divining that's woo. And -1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
1) He couldn't. He simply thought he could.
2) It isn't. Only people who haven't investigated it think that.
thinfourth2 said:
So if water diving doesn't work then why
1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
1) Many years experience of bring a bricky gives him the experience to guess where the drains probably are. Combined with the ideomotor effect and you have a perfectly feasible explanation.1 Could the old bricky use it to find drains
2 Is it widely belived to work
2) 33% of the worlds population think praying to a Christian god works while 67% think it doesn't. A billion people believing in something doesn't make it correct.
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