Explain Water divining

[The Excession]

Gaspode said:

I suspect he uses a coat hanger because the bloke who taught him used a coat hanger. They've never bothered to check what the exact effect of using a coat hanger is, why should they? My suspicion is that its use is purely incidental, but that could bear investigation.

Good post, thanks.
Of course. My post was long enough without wanting to go into too much detail.

I've met this chap several times and it's hard to get any firm information out of him. As for the coat hanger, and as for the bloke that taught him we're back into the ideomotor effect. (Which incidently is an arena I'm completely comfortable with.)

If the use is purely incidental then that is surely ideomotor effect? For want of a better term a subconcious effect that is amplified by the use of a divining rod. If you ask him he just says 'I dunno, I can just do it...'

My GF works in physical therapy and employs an understanding of anatomy that would give Gray himself a run for the money, at the same time she is also using Chinese techniques in accupunture. I've witnessed first hand what a needle in the back of your left elbow can do to a pain in your right hip to know that I don't care what other people think... I just know that it worked. Similarly I've 'dicked' about with Chi and Chinese medicine whilst living out in the East.
I've 'dicked' about with massage and healing techniques taught in monestaries in Nepal and Thailand and had what I would call remarkable results.
I've 'dicked' about with dowsing and had what I would call remarkable results.

When my GF comes home after a hard days work, I can't explain why I can place my hands on her shoulder's and relieve all the tension (and we're not talk a quick rub here, I'm talking using techniques that were given to me where you can sense the problems and remove then with hardly any intervention).

It's very very very difficult to explain because simply in our language we do not have the words to explain it. I cannot put into words the feeling that I can sense when I move my hands over someone that requires some 'therapy' - some times it's a buzzing, some times it's like glue or custard, other times it's like popping bubble wrap. That to me is no different to Moss Lane using a bent bit of wire - it just shows you where the problem is. Quite wher the skill comes from in fixing it is another topic as this one is all about dowsing.




So again...

Gaspode said:

but that could bear investigation.

I think that is why we are contributing to this thread.

[The Excession]

hairykrishna said:

It's a ~1% chance that a random 10 coin flips give you 9 heads. 9 followed by a tail would be much larger as it's more specific. This can be misleading though. If I tossed a coin 10 times and got 9 heads would you conclude that I could influence the fall of a coin with powers unknown to science? Or that it was a fluke?

10 trials is bugger all. Do it 60+ times out of a hundred in properly controlled conditions and it might be worth more of a look.

You're right, but it wasn't about getting nine heads in a row. It was about 'guessing' the correct fall nine times in a row.

I'm up for the 60+ times test. I'll see if I can get someone to sit and do that with me. Stranglely enough, beside the elctric extension cable I still own the same device that was used originally to generate the on/off.

[jmorgan]

The Excession said:

Right then - this has gone far enough!

I propose a test please.

We will need a few people to help out here.

I propose a test where a few 'trust worthy' people will write a number on a card/paper. The number shall be between 0 and 9.

This number shall be hidden from me, but submitted to the warden of the test.
I will get out my faithful pendulum (actually I won't because it's been lost and I can't dowse its location, but I will make a new one) and I will dowse for the correct number on each card.

So Randi eat your heart out.... here we go...

• Ten readers of this thread to subscribe to this test.
• Each of these people write a number on a card/paper and take a photo of it on an agreed date with a copy of any daily paper underneath.
• This photo will be shared with only Eric
• All I want to see a photo of each of the ten people's numbers sealed in an evelope on top of the same news paper that was sent as a pic to Eric
• Of course I'd like all of you to agree not to send me any corresspondance on what numbers you chose.
• You must choose your number and take the two photos on the same day.
• You post the picture of the closed envelope with the newspaper here, you send/email a photo of the exposed number to Eric as I trust him to be truthful (he is good with numbers afterall).
• I then of course will dowse and identify everyone's number correctly.

What do we think chaps?

(I can confirm that in the past I have had little or no email exchange with Eric, I'm not able to hack his email, but I do kind of trust the fact that if I got 9/10 correct her might post that result here!)


So, ten people willing to do the test, then we pick a date, you all take a photo of your number on top of a paper, email that to Eric. Then you all take a picture of your number inside an envelope on the same paper and send that to me.

I'll dowse your numbers and go on to claim my $million!

This is going to be so much fun!

If you think you have the power of grey skull, why 0-9? I would suggest a higher number and repeated at least to that number. Lets say a thousand at least.

[carmonk]

jmorgan said:

If you think you have the power of grey skull, why 0-9? I would suggest a higher number and repeated at least to that number. Lets say a thousand at least.

...and just have one envelope. In controlled conditions I'd gladly offer a prize of my own against a modest entry fee to cover expenses.

[don4l]

The Excession said:

You're right, but it wasn't about getting nine heads in a row. It was about 'guessing' the correct fall nine times in a row.

I'm up for the 60+ times test. I'll see if I can get someone to sit and do that with me. Stranglely enough, beside the elctric extension cable I still own the same device that was used originally to generate the on/off.

There is a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

I'll happily take part in the photo experiment


Don
--

[carmonk]

don4l said:

There is a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

But there were 10 throws, which gives a 0.9% probability of 9 being right and one being wrong.

[The Excession]

jmorgan said:

If you think you have the power of grey skull, why 0-9? I would suggest a higher number and repeated at least to that number. Lets say a thousand at least.

Oh common... how long do you think I've got? If it takes me 2 minutes to test each number for each person that's 200 minutes - 3 & 1/3 hours.

If I get a good score then we'll go for a larger number of digits and people, ok?

[The Excession]

Oh, and one last thing, I'm not saying I can do this and get the right answers, I'm just saying I'm willing to try.



So, in full anticipation of.....

[hairykrishna]

I'll happily generate a number for the envelope experiment. You need to qualify what you think counts as success or fail though, otherwise we'll have someone holding up you getting one number correct and a few 'close' as proof of remote viewing.

[jmorgan]

The Excession said:

jmorgan said:

If you think you have the power of grey skull, why 0-9? I would suggest a higher number and repeated at least to that number. Lets say a thousand at least.

Oh common... how long do you think I've got? If it takes me 2 minutes to test each number for each person that's 200 minutes - 3 & 1/3 hours.

If I get a good score then we'll go for a larger number of digits and people, ok?

Trying to remove the chance or probability of getting a favourable result from a lower sample. You have confidence you can do it?

[BarnatosGhost]

f1rob said:

Eric Mc said:

I just thought that the two skills seemed to go together.

Ah there was scientific thought thought behind it ? an I thought it was just a cheap dig

It would have been, but you didn't tell him where to start.

[The Excession]

hairykrishna said:

I'll happily generate a number for the envelope experiment. You need to qualify what you think counts as success or fail though, otherwise we'll have someone holding up you getting one number correct and a few 'close' as proof of remote viewing.

I think I ought to get 90% correct, 9 out of 10 correct for it to count (perhaps 10/10 if I'm allowed to dowse my own number in my own envelope ).

Close doesn't count, I either get it right or get I it wrong.

What do you think?

This thread could go down in the PH legendary threads as being the one where I never dare post on these forums again! As said, I don't know if I can do it but in the interest of research I'll lay my self on the bench and give it a go.

[BarnatosGhost]

f1rob said:

Eric Mc said:

Of course.

It's linked to what I call Skill Balance Theory.

If a person is exceptionally skilled in one area - then as compensation they must be exceptionally unskilled in some other area.

Well im brilliant at composites and car builds an crap at English so have just helped you with your theory
But where in the theory does it state that it also affects the persons views on other things ?

Would you accept $1m to prove that you're brilliant at composites and car builds?

[carmonk]

The Excession said:

I think I ought to get 90% correct, 9 out of 10 correct for it to count (perhaps 10/10 if I'm allowed to dowse my own number in my own envelope ).

Close doesn't count, I either get it right or get I it wrong.

What do you think?

This thread could go down in the PH legendary threads as being the one where I never dare post on these forums again! As said, I don't know if I can do it but in the interest of research I'll lay my self on the bench and give it a go.

I think you have a 1 in 100 chance of becoming heroic. A couple of questions, though -

Why are you not going for 10 out of 10? Because surely either you can do it or not. I can read 10 numbers on my desk with 100% accuracy, no doubt about it.

How do you differentiate between a 6 and a 9? I don't mean how it should be clarified (obviously a line is the best bet) but how do you know the difference with your psychic power? It would mean not only do you have the power to remotely view the written contents of an envelope anywhere in the world - outrageous in itself - but you are able to read the mind of the person who wrote them. That's impossible^2.

[hairykrishna]

The Excession said:

I think I ought to get 90% correct, 9 out of 10 correct for it to count (perhaps 10/10 if I'm allowed to dowse my own number in my own envelope ).

Close doesn't count, I either get it right or get I it wrong.

What do you think?

This thread could go down in the PH legendary threads as being the one where I never dare post on these forums again! As said, I don't know if I can do it but in the interest of research I'll lay my self on the bench and give it a go.

Sounds ok to me.

[The Excession]

carmonk said:

I think you have a 1 in 100 chance of becoming heroic.

I don't want to be a hero, though as you say those odds are not too far off laying a bet.

carmonk said:

A couple of questions, though -

Why are you not going for 10 out of 10? Because surely either you can do it or not. I can read 10 numbers on my desk with 100% accuracy, no doubt about it.

No problem, we'll go with 100% 10/10 or the usual PH GTFO.

carmonk said:

How do you differentiate between a 6 and a 9? I don't mean how it should be clarified (obviously a line is the best bet) but how do you know the difference with your psychic power? It would mean not only do you have the power to remotely view the written contents of an envelope anywhere in the world - outrageous in itself - but you are able to read the mind of the person who wrote them. That's impossible^2.

This is where it gets very interesting because I'm not claiming any psychic power, I'm just saying that for a laugh we can try this.

In the past I've 'guessed' corectly numbers that were written on bits of paper that I could not see, I've also 'guessed' birth dates that to me I shouldn't have known about.

Stop and think about that for a minute.

Really please, stop looking at this as an onslaught to discredit the 'art of dowsing', I don't even know if there is a real art of dowsing, all I can say is that in my life I have tried it a few times and got the right answer and I've looked into the odds, and they seem a bit unusual.

I'm not saying that I can do this, I want to test it again.

Hopefully I'll fail miserably and we can all go back to our lives thinking this is a crock of st.

But what if I can 'guess' ten numbers from ten different people that I've never met?

I just want to test that. It c(sh)ould be fun to try.

Of course you do know that I've already dowsed the 100,000 or so member names of people posting on PH, ascertained which ones will join the experiment, and what numbers they will pick.

Should I post my results before we even start the test?

[carmonk]

The Excession said:

carmonk said:

I think you have a 1 in 100 chance of becoming heroic.

I don't want to be a hero, though as you say those odds are not too far off laying a bet.

carmonk said:

A couple of questions, though -

Why are you not going for 10 out of 10? Because surely either you can do it or not. I can read 10 numbers on my desk with 100% accuracy, no doubt about it.

No problem, we'll go with 100% 10/10 or the usual PH GTFO.

carmonk said:

How do you differentiate between a 6 and a 9? I don't mean how it should be clarified (obviously a line is the best bet) but how do you know the difference with your psychic power? It would mean not only do you have the power to remotely view the written contents of an envelope anywhere in the world - outrageous in itself - but you are able to read the mind of the person who wrote them. That's impossible^2.

This is where it gets very interesting because I'm not claiming any psychic power, I'm just saying that for a laugh we can try this.

I've no objection to testing, it's a good thing, but you do realise that if you could do this you would be psychic? There's no science at all that could explain it and the laws of physics would need to be rewritten to accomodate such a thing. That's why I'm skeptical.

The Excession said:

In the past I've 'guessed' corectly numbers that were written on bits of paper that I could not see, I've also 'guessed' birth dates that to me I shouldn't have known about.

Stop and think about that for a minute.

I don't doubt it. What I'm saying is there is a logical explanation for that. Many years ago I watched a TV prog with Geller doing his thing. He massaged his temples as all good psychics do and drew something hidden from the camera. He then invited the viewers to make their own drawings and phone in if they got a match. I drew a picture and it matched his, it was virtually identical. Even back then I was skeptical (I didn't phone in) and when I realised that 6 million people were watching the program it was obviously inevitable that a few thousand would be successful. And I was one of the few thousand. And that's the explanation, luck.

The Excession said:

Really please, stop looking at this as an onslaught to discredit the 'art of dowsing', I don't even know if there is a real art of dowsing, all I can say is that in my life I have tried it a few times and got the right answer and I've looked into the odds, and they seem a bit unusual.

I'm not saying that I can do this, I want to test it again.

Hopefully I'll fail miserably and we can all go back to our lives thinking this is a crock of st.

But what if I can 'guess' ten numbers from ten different people that I've never met?

If you do that, and the protocol seems sound, then I'd be willing - for a modest entry fee - to give you the chance to use your skills to win a lot of money in a properly controlled scientific experiment. Unlike Randi I'd charge an application fee but on the upside, you wouldn't need to fly to America.

The Excession said:

I just want to test that. It c(sh)ould be fun to try.

Of course you do know that I've already dowsed the 100,000 or so member names of people posting on PH, ascertained which ones will join the experiment, and what numbers they will pick.

Should I post my results before we even start the test?

I think it's a good thing to test these things, that's good science. I won't take part but I'll observe with interest.

[don4l]

carmonk said:

don4l said:

There is a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

But there were 10 throws, which gives a 0.9% probability of 9 being right and one being wrong.

... erm...

So what?

There is still a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

Why do you think that I was wrong?

Don
--

[carmonk]

don4l said:

carmonk said:

don4l said:

There is a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

But there were 10 throws, which gives a 0.9% probability of 9 being right and one being wrong.

... erm...

So what?

There is still a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

Why do you think that I was wrong?

Don
--

Because chance is based on expectation, not observation. On this occasion the expectation (or statement of intent) was to throw heads and ten throws were made, so the tenth has to be taken into account. After the fact, the pattern

HHHHHHHHHH

is just as likely as

THTTHHTHTH

or any other combination, and all have odds of 1024:1 against.

[don4l]

carmonk said:

don4l said:

carmonk said:

don4l said:

There is a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

But there were 10 throws, which gives a 0.9% probability of 9 being right and one being wrong.

... erm...

So what?

There is still a one in 512 chance of getting 9 heads in a row.

Why do you think that I was wrong?

Because chance is based on expectation, not observation. On this occasion the expectation (or statement of intent) was to throw heads and ten throws were made, so the tenth has to be taken into account. After the fact, the pattern

HHHHHHHHHH

is just as likely as

THTTHHTHTH

or any other combination, and all have odds of 1024:1 against.

I'm a bit confused as to why you want to argue.

What do you think the odds of getting 9 heads in a row are?

Don
--