Mining Asteroids

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Discussion

qube_TA

8,402 posts

244 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
quotequote all
Doesn't something have to emit light or at least reflect light for spectroscopy to work? If you just have a rock in orbit how can you see what it's made out of?


MartG

20,622 posts

203 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
quotequote all
qube_TA said:
Doesn't something have to emit light or at least reflect light for spectroscopy to work? If you just have a rock in orbit how can you see what it's made out of?
Reflection spectra, including non-visible wavelengths e.g. infra red

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
qube_TA said:
Doesn't something have to emit light or at least reflect light for spectroscopy to work? If you just have a rock in orbit how can you see what it's made out of?
MIT are already doing spectroscopy on some NEOs.

http://smass.mit.edu/catalog.php

Essentially you use a telescope to measure the light that's reflected off of the asteroid from the sun. You know how sunlight reflects off of various minerals, so you can compare the values with known values to see what you get.

Of course, scientists being scientists, they are talking about doing it with frickin' lasers. In space. biggrin

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
You can also send impactors into the object to vaporise and blast off material which is then be assessed using a spectroscope. This has been done a couple of times and was the technique used to prove the existence of water at the moon's south pole.

qube_TA

8,402 posts

244 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
qube_TA said:
Doesn't something have to emit light or at least reflect light for spectroscopy to work? If you just have a rock in orbit how can you see what it's made out of?
MIT are already doing spectroscopy on some NEOs.

http://smass.mit.edu/catalog.php

Essentially you use a telescope to measure the light that's reflected off of the asteroid from the sun. You know how sunlight reflects off of various minerals, so you can compare the values with known values to see what you get.

Of course, scientists being scientists, they are talking about doing it with frickin' lasers. In space. biggrin
Anything with lasers is better.

But unless you cracked it open how would you see anything other than what's on the surface?


Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
See my post above.

Here's what happens when you smack a comet -






russman777

167 posts

162 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
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Don't even think its viable in are age maybe 10 years down the line maybe,even if some of the companys that think of doing it may not even touch even I still think its worth it to get some rare or new materials to help expand technology,think what gold and other rare minerals will be worth in 10 years time,would give a new twist on working away from home lol

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
in 10 years it will also cost alot more to get started, inline with inflation and gold values..

so starting now or in 10 years really makes no difference cost-wise.

but the company that starts now, will be 10 years closer to profit than someone who waits 10 years

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
russman777 said:
Don't even think its viable in are age maybe 10 years down the line maybe,even if some of the companys that think of doing it may not even touch even I still think its worth it to get some rare or new materials to help expand technology,think what gold and other rare minerals will be worth in 10 years time,would give a new twist on working away from home lol
Now is as good a time to start as ever.

The whole point of this type of "mining" is that the raw materials are being extracted for use IN SPACE. These materials are far more effective if they are processed and manufactured in space for use in space.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
you dont until you have setup the orbital/trojan processing and manufacturing infrastructure. using the craft you later plan to sell on the open market to the new comers giving you a platform to demo them to the world.

once that is done, other companies will want to join you in mining the heavens, and it will work like a scrap metal yard.

you sell them the equipment to harvest the 'roids, and then pay them whatever for the roids they deliver for processing according to their mineral content.


the equipment you make in orbit will cost a fraction of anything constructed planet side as you dont need to boost it out of a huge gravity well so any prospectors need only be millionaires instead of nations.


uranium will be especially useful seeing as no ban on operating nuclear powered craft in space exists, and combining a nuclear thruster with an Ice rich asteroid will provide a craft capable of getting to the outer solar system very quickly ( using the water as reaction mass) enabling you to repeat your base construction process in the Trojan of Saturn giving you unlimited access Ice and the moons of the saturnian system




Edited by SystemParanoia on Tuesday 1st May 14:55

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
as i said earlier, melt the asteroids down to molten slag using solar/nuclear powered induction coils.

http://youtu.be/wZPgw2sTmNM

just scale it up!


http://youtu.be/aLwaPP9cxT4

even ice gets red hot under induction

http://youtu.be/Q6Zrnv4OtbU

Magnetically constrained levitating alu being melted down

Edited by SystemParanoia on Tuesday 1st May 16:03

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
PW said:
SystemParanoia said:
but the company that starts now, will be 10 years closer to profit than someone who waits 10 years
How do you make a profit though?

I don't doubt that it is technically possible to do, but is it practical to do? I'm really curious as to how the economics could work.

As far as I can work out it'll cost many billions to get to the point where you can start looking at asteroids for resources, let alone even think about extracting them.

And there's no guarantee that any suitable asteroids are close by - it might take decades to find one worth mining. It could take centuries before it became "profitable".

Of course, that's presuming the lawyers have finished debating whether it is even legal for people to claim ownership of, and therefore profits from objects in space.

If you're going to go for something outlandish... space based power generation seems a more sensible idea to pursue. It's a big technical hurdle, but if it is possible, it is possible no matter what, unlike the mining idea where it might be entirely possible, but for a lack of asteroids to mine...
It's their money. Let them spend it how they want to.

Or are you setting yourself up as a space investment consultant?

I'm sure the technologies that flow from this will be beneficial to everybody. If we are hanging around waiting for governments to do it we will be waiting a long time - unless you're Chinese.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
PW said:
SystemParanoia said:
but the company that starts now, will be 10 years closer to profit than someone who waits 10 years
How do you make a profit though?

I don't doubt that it is technically possible to do, but is it practical to do? I'm really curious as to how the economics could work.

As far as I can work out it'll cost many billions to get to the point where you can start looking at asteroids for resources, let alone even think about extracting them.

And there's no guarantee that any suitable asteroids are close by - it might take decades to find one worth mining. It could take centuries before it became "profitable".

Of course, that's presuming the lawyers have finished debating whether it is even legal for people to claim ownership of, and therefore profits from objects in space.

If you're going to go for something outlandish... space based power generation seems a more sensible idea to pursue. It's a big technical hurdle, but if it is possible, it is possible no matter what, unlike the mining idea where it might be entirely possible, but for a lack of asteroids to mine...
It's their money. Let them spend it how they want to.

Or are you setting yourself up as a space investment consultant?

I'm sure the technologies that flow from this will be beneficial to everybody. If we are hanging around waiting for governments to do it we will be waiting a long time - unless you're Chinese.

MartG

20,622 posts

203 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
PW said:
... space based power generation seems a more sensible idea to pursue..
Built from materials mined from asteroids ;-)

russman777

167 posts

162 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
I hate this is the governments let us mine them space law bs,no one owns the asteroids,so finders keepers if you get there first and you make the effort to do so and bankrupt yourself along the way then why shouldnt you be able to do so,we are self the british empire once took over lots of places because we made the effort lol so we got the rewards fronm their natural resources

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
russman777 said:
I hate this is the governments let us mine them space law bs,no one owns the asteroids,so finders keepers if you get there first and you make the effort to do so and bankrupt yourself along the way then why shouldnt you be able to do so,we are self the british empire once took over lots of places because we made the effort lol so we got the rewards fronm their natural resources
there is no law in space..

if you land on anything out there ( planet , moon or roid/comet ) you can claim it as your own and declare yourself a sovereign nation... like "Sealand"



Edited by SystemParanoia on Tuesday 1st May 20:50

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
PW said:
Eric Mc said:
It's their money. Let them spend it how they want to.
Point out, please, where I said they shouldn't rolleyes

I was actually asking a question - god forbid anyone mark themselves as being cave dwelling Luddites by doing such a thing - as to how it is supposed to work in terms of ever being "profitable" in any conventional sense.

I'm guessing there isn't all that much data on what resources asteroids represent, and the data set can't be built until we start looking, so why not start looking - that makes sense, and there are lots of steps along the way to that end that will have solutions that can be used for many other ventures, which is where I guess most of the return will come from.

The actual economics of mining asteroids, however... They could find 100 viable candidates on the first day, it might take 10 years until they find one, which might be on the other side of the solar system. Without knowing the timescale involved, how much wonderflonium you could typically extract from any given source, or how much it would cost to process it once they've created the technology, it is difficult to see how it could be considered in traditional business terms of "profitability". Hence the opening question in my first post.

There are any number of other space-based exploratory activities they could have chosen that would require many of the steps they plan on taking to be achieved, and similar amounts of investment, that have seemingly much more attainable ultimate goals, without the large number of variables and unknowns that astro-mining seems to include.

If someone has some insight or information that would be useful, great. Otherwise...
the actual gathering of the asteroids may take a substantial amount of time.. but they are robots, so let them do what robots do and collect asteroids and park them in L4 and L5.

then they can be processed for silicon and metals and manufacture massive quantities of solar panels and parabolic antennae meaning they be sold to nations and corporations that are launching satellites into orbit or around the solar system.. as the satellites and probes can now be built lighter so cost less to launch, and fit those vital systems after it achieves orbit, instead of having to lug it all the way up out of the gravity well.

manufacture can gradually progress to building complete satellites and nullify the cost effectiveness of every unmanned orbital launch system

a nuclear breeder plant can be constructed creating drive systems for solar and extra solar craft enabling them to have near infinite power for their ION drives to conduct their missions.

Foam Steel and Foam Iron etc can be easily made to use as construction materials being VERY light and still strong enough for their environment ( meaning increased performance and efficiency for ION drives )

the gradual construction of a HUGE orbital particle accelerator can begin, having a diameter of over 300,000km it will have a high antimatter conversion rate.. and being powered by surplus solar panel construction it will be essentially free, and governments will be paying hand over fist for their scientists to "have a go" of your new ultra collider

Construction of orbital magnetic accelerator rings can begin, allowing near instant acceleration of probes and missions to the outer solar system, similar rings can be shipped to every planets Lagrange points for deceleration and re-acceleration of mined resources from their locations

universities can pool together their funding to begin construction of large telescopes ( optical/radio ) and all the money can go into the telescope rather than into launching it into orbit

this goes for all things built in orbit/space, they will be MASSIVLY cheaper with no size or payload restrictions compared to ground based alternatives, and anything built on earth will cost ungodly amounts of money to launch, and then it will be compromised as it will either need multiple launches, or scaled back to allow it to fit into a single launch mission.

recruiting staff will be easy as the vast majority of people will be only too happy to work up there for free for lets say off the top of my head 6mths at a time.

im sure theres more

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

121,779 posts

264 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
PW said:
Point out, please, where I said they shouldn't rolleyes

I was actually asking a question - god forbid anyone mark themselves as being cave dwelling Luddites by doing such a thing - as to how it is supposed to work in terms of ever being "profitable" in any conventional sense.

I'm guessing there isn't all that much data on what resources asteroids represent, and the data set can't be built until we start looking, so why not start looking - that makes sense, and there are lots of steps along the way to that end that will have solutions that can be used for many other ventures, which is where I guess most of the return will come from.

The actual economics of mining asteroids, however... They could find 100 viable candidates on the first day, it might take 10 years until they find one, which might be on the other side of the solar system. Without knowing the timescale involved, how much wonderflonium you could typically extract from any given source, or how much it would cost to process it once they've created the technology, it is difficult to see how it could be considered in traditional business terms of "profitability". Hence the opening question in my first post.

There are any number of other space-based exploratory activities they could have chosen that would require many of the steps they plan on taking to be achieved, and similar amounts of investment, that have seemingly much more attainable ultimate goals, without the large number of variables and unknowns that astro-mining seems to include.

If someone has some insight or information that would be useful, great. Otherwise...
Don't over react.

Why should you criticise whet they want to do with their own money. It's their plan and they obviously aren't intersted in other schemes - at the moment

And if you are concerned about them "wasting" their own money, why not speak to them directly -

http://www.planetaryresources.com/

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Don't over react.

Why should you criticise whet they want to do with their own money. It's their plan and they obviously aren't intersted in other schemes - at the moment

And if you are concerned about them "wasting" their own money, why not speak to them directly -

http://www.planetaryresources.com/
The numbers will have been worked out. That's the joy of private investment. Japan has already managed to land something on an asteroid, so it's not pie in the sky - just a matter of scaling up to get a large enough payload to the asteroid.

And bear in mind that technology to land on an asteroid and divert it into a parking orbit is exactly the same technology needed to land on an asteroid and divert it away from hitting Earth, so it serves a very good purpose.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 1st May 2012
quotequote all
quoted from the website

"A 500 meter diameter water rich asteroid has $50B (billion) worth of water deliverable to a deep space fuel depot, even if one makes the conservative assumptions that: 1) only 1% of the water is extracted; 2) half of each load of water is consumed en route for propulsion; and 3) the success of commercial spaceflight causes the cost of Earth-originating launches to drop by a factor of 100. Of course, less conservative assumptions would raise the value of the asteroid to many trillions, or even tens of trillions, of dollars."