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Derek Smith

Original Poster:

16,058 posts

117 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
If you fall into a blank hole you accelerate until you reach the event horizon when, from an observer's point of view, you cease motion.

To you, falling into the black hole, time continues at its normal rate.

So when you, from your point of view, you cross into the black hole, time will have ended.

But if continual expansion of the universe, er, continues then black holes will, eventually, 'explode', or whatever the word is. So therefore someone falling into the black hole will see it explode when he crosses the event horizon.

Or have I got it all wrong.

I know the theory is that you will be spaghettified when you approach the event horizon, if you fall face down and have a tight pair of underpants on you should be all right.

Mattygooner

4,240 posts

73 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Erm...

I don't think anyone actually knows what happends when you go past the event horizon because it's hard to tell because it emits no light, they can only guestimate based on the effects it has on its surroundings.

I think, still very confusing yet very interesting

Watching the Eden channel over the past couple of days were you?

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

16,058 posts

117 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Mattygooner said:
Erm...

Watching the Eden channel over the past couple of days were you?
Indeed.

Mattygooner

4,240 posts

73 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
Indeed.
Has been very interesting, have been watching it myself and my brain hurts slightly. I have deduced that i understand more that comes out of Brian Cox's mouth than other narrators.

But not alot judgin by my first response :heh:

Bedazzled

4,089 posts

90 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
If you look up at the rest of the universe as you approach the event horizon of a black hole, you would see events in the distant cosmos running faster and faster... but I think what happens next depends on how you interpret infinity.

If time dilation approaches infinity, then light from those distant events would still take time to reach you, so you would have to hover at the event horizon to witness them (impossible btw, as this would require you to travel at c).

If time dilation reaches infinity, then you could witness the infinite future history of the universe in an instant as you cross the event horizon and plummet into singular oblivion.

Meanwhile on Earth we would have a hard time observing your descent into the gravity well, as your movement slows due to time dilation and you fade out of sight due to gravitational red-shift.

Beyond the event horizon... who knows, but my bet is Maximilian would get you! smile


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Derek Smith

Original Poster:

16,058 posts

117 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
There was an old sceince fiction book, Star Gate (nothing to do with the film otsn) where our hero sees his girlfriend plummet towards a black hole after he abandoned her and is tortured by the 'fact' that she is still alive and hating him.

I was confused by the science. I understood that mass would be infinite if the body (of his wife?) was travelling at the speed of light. But, I was told, the speed would not go at the SOL until after the EH was crossed and therefore no one kne what rules applied there.

Seemed a terrible cop-out to me but that was before I heard of dark matter and dark energy. Now they are big cop-outs.

  • *
Edited to add:

The book was Gateway, one of Pohl's better ones. I read it years ago but according to Amazon it is now in the Masterworks series.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=s...

Edited by Derek Smith on Tuesday 3rd July 22:33

Bedazzled

4,089 posts

90 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
I think a person falling into a black hole at relativistic speed would perceive their own mass to be normal (likewise they would perceive the passage of time to be normal), but their mass would increase to an observer, say on Earth.

Efbe

4,867 posts

35 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
just because someone sees you slowing down, does not mean you are.

it's a part of quantum physics I don't quite agree with. (yes I am probably wrong!)

physprof

906 posts

56 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Efbe said:
it's a part of quantum physics I don't quite agree with. (yes I am probably wrong!)
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMDTcMD6pOw

have a look at the other clips/snippets in that series.... fantastic.

mybrainhurts

71,633 posts

124 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Can I use this as an excuse when I'm late...?

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

16,058 posts

117 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
If you look up at the rest of the universe as you approach the event horizon of a black hole, you would see events in the distant cosmos running faster and faster...
Thanks for the explanation.

Is there any suggestion that the SoL is not the limiting speed inside a singularity?

Byt the way, on the bit quoted, you've got to be pretty cool when plummenting towards a balck hole to casually turn around and look at the rest of the universe.

CommanderJameson

20,715 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
I thought that there's no notion of "inside" a singularity, what with it having no size?

And if something has no size, then you can't really travel across it, so any notional max speed is a bit of a moot point.

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
A Black Hole Star is not a Singularity, it is an extremely dense mass.

If you do the maths then it is easily proven, the fact is the bigger a Black Hole Star is the less dense it becomes, make it big enough and it has less density than water.

The world is filled with misconceptions about what a Black Hole Star is... the reason is the phenomena has been shortened to just 'Black Hole', when I use Black Hole, I mean Black Hole Star... almost everyone outside Cosmology doesn't and the name has become a conceptual error borne of misuse.

CommanderJameson

20,715 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Is this wrong, then?

Wikipedia said:
At the center of a black hole as described by general relativity lies a gravitational singularity, a region where the spacetime curvature becomes infinite.[53] For a non-rotating black hole, this region takes the shape of a single point and for a rotating black hole, it is smeared out to form a ring singularity lying in the plane of rotation.[54] In both cases, the singular region has zero volume. It can also be shown that the singular region contains all the mass of the black hole solution.[55] The singular region can thus be thought of as having infinite density.
De-confuse me this instant, I say!

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
The important bit is 'gravitational' singularity, we don't have much of a handle on that aspect of Physics, so the term might be loosely applied.

It is not a singularity, that is an entirely different thing, so it is wrong but they jumped the shark by adding Gravitational, which negates the term singularity.... you can't really have a Singularity of only one thing and ignoring all the rest of the Cosmos.

CommanderJameson

20,715 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Gene Vincent said:
A Black Hole Star is not a Singularity, it is an extremely dense mass.

If you do the maths then it is easily proven, the fact is the bigger a Black Hole Star is the less dense it becomes, make it big enough and it has less density than water.

The world is filled with misconceptions about what a Black Hole Star is... the reason is the phenomena has been shortened to just 'Black Hole', when I use Black Hole, I mean Black Hole Star... almost everyone outside Cosmology doesn't and the name has become a conceptual error borne of misuse.
OK, so now I'm really confused.

I can't find anything that defines a "Black Hole Star".

Hook me up, yeah?

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Further... if it were a Singularity, then you me and the Planet would be in it, that is what a singularity is!

The fact that I'm here outside the Black Hole Star proves it is not a singularity.

You're still there right?

You too are living proof that it is not a singularity... you are part of the experiment into singularities... be proud!biggrin

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
CommanderJameson said:
Gene Vincent said:
A Black Hole Star is not a Singularity, it is an extremely dense mass.

If you do the maths then it is easily proven, the fact is the bigger a Black Hole Star is the less dense it becomes, make it big enough and it has less density than water.

The world is filled with misconceptions about what a Black Hole Star is... the reason is the phenomena has been shortened to just 'Black Hole', when I use Black Hole, I mean Black Hole Star... almost everyone outside Cosmology doesn't and the name has become a conceptual error borne of misuse.
OK, so now I'm really confused.

I can't find anything that defines a "Black Hole Star".

Hook me up, yeah?
What forms a Black Hole? A collapsing Star! Hence it is a Black Hole Star!

The fact that it is not twinkling is due the density of 'part' of its matter causing the escape velocity to exceed that of the speed of light.

CommanderJameson

20,715 posts

95 months

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Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Uh, you've got a link to something that's vaguely credible (i.e. written by actual scientists whose peers don't regard them as total lunatics) to back this stuff up, right?

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

27 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
CommanderJameson said:
Uh, you've got a link to something that's vaguely credible (i.e. written by actual scientists whose peers don't regard them as total lunatics) to back this stuff up, right?
Read:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_collaps...
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