SpaceX Tuesday...
Discussion
Toaster said:
Eric Mc said:
Are you advocating not to bother? Or are you just being a nay sayer?
Nope I am saying there is a distinct lack of realism, wooohooo we are off to colonise Mars. But there is a lot not explained by the current plan to colonise Mars and a distinct lack of detail. With my cynical head on its like the buildings in a wild west film.
Lets build a space ship to send 100's to Mars:
Where is the Oxygen coming from
How are the people being protected from radiation
What is the long term effects on the human body of 1/3 gravity
What about supplies until the garden of eden can be grown
does the radiation affect the plant seeds? and the food that is eaten
What are the energy sources to be used?
How much water is needed
What is the long term Psychological impact on human health
Who is going to pay for all of this? the list goes on and on and there needs to be practical answers and discussions
You may have guessed, this isn't Star Trek, there is no warp speed or teleporting
Toaster said:
Beati Dogu said:
The first few English settlements to the new world didn't end well either (financial loss, starvation, cannibalism etc), but it didn't put us off continuing. Nor did we wait for the QE2 to be built before crossing the Atlantic on leaky little tubs like the Mayflower.
They just need to have stuff pre-positioned and choose adventurous, capable people. I don't think they'll have a problem finding enough volunteers that can do it.
Erm but there were human communities already living there, and contrary to popular beleife America was colonised before Columbus you probably need to brush up on Americas history a little.They just need to have stuff pre-positioned and choose adventurous, capable people. I don't think they'll have a problem finding enough volunteers that can do it.
Mars is nothing like America, and those who settle may find it impossible to return to Earth,
So lets think for a moment around the Science that is required and the meaning of what lays in front of the individuals who go, you will always be inside a building a small one at that, never going outside and feeling the wind, sun, rain, snow. a walk in the woods taking a boat out.......just a red rocky planet with no air 1/3 gravity.
In time there may be a Vegas type environment, possibly a Dome to live under in the mean time as these guys say its going to take some amazing science and meticulous planning https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/survive-mars?u...
So as this is a Science thread rather than people putting up plastic airfix models (and yes I built those as well) it would be really nice to see some intelligent dialogue about the challenges and how this will happen.
IN51GHT said:
Beati Dogu said:
They sure burn clean, those LOX / Methane rockets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CReyk9RYz8
This is NASA's Morpheus Lander test vehicle, which also runs off LOX / Methane.
Hmm.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CReyk9RYz8
This is NASA's Morpheus Lander test vehicle, which also runs off LOX / Methane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM1wjs5nWXQ
I also thought that the SpaceX video was a bit far fetched. But I'm not going to knock their ambition.
As I said a few posts back, the only reservation I might have is that SpaceX is not just a bunch of dreamers but also a hard headed, engineering operation with commercial goals as well as longer term escoteric goals.
When you are engaged in day to day business with other investors and business partners, you do need to be seen as a fairly sensible and sometimes staid operator - especially in an arena where what you are doing is cutting edge and risky.
You don't want to blow your hard won credibility with ideas that seem a bit "out there".
As I said a few posts back, the only reservation I might have is that SpaceX is not just a bunch of dreamers but also a hard headed, engineering operation with commercial goals as well as longer term escoteric goals.
When you are engaged in day to day business with other investors and business partners, you do need to be seen as a fairly sensible and sometimes staid operator - especially in an arena where what you are doing is cutting edge and risky.
You don't want to blow your hard won credibility with ideas that seem a bit "out there".
Do we know the level of funding that's required to make the Mars project a reality and whether that funding is totally in place?
I agree with you Eric about having a sensible side to the project BUT without the visionaries and their 'out there' dreaming, none of this ever even gets off the ground. It's a balancing act for sure.
I agree with you Eric about having a sensible side to the project BUT without the visionaries and their 'out there' dreaming, none of this ever even gets off the ground. It's a balancing act for sure.
I think its all super interesting. It going to be a long term investment but imagine being the first company to look for resources, ok its a massive gamble but lets say they discovered platinum or something large deposits. They would then control the supply. That said, I think if mars was littered with precious metals we would have already been by now or at least had a few tries!
Toaster said:
Nope I am saying there is a distinct lack of realism, wooohooo we are off to colonise Mars. But there is a lot not explained by the current plan to colonise Mars and a distinct lack of detail.
SpaceX/EM have actively said that is not their business nor interest so I was neither surprised nor disappointed that they did not have a plan.I don't think anyone in their right mind would expect the maiden voyage to include 100 settlers with chickens in cages and a sack of Potatoes each...
Assuming SpaceX's designs and testing go to plan and their ITS is the first manned vehicle to head to Mars. I think we can assume it will include a flight crew (3-8) science crew (provided by NASA/Russia/China/ESA of 10max) and a s
t load of equipment, spares and most important- the fuel manufacturing plant for the return trip. Its claimed 350t to Mars surface, the first trip has to include a solar power plant, fuel plant and possible a Nuclear reactor... not much room left for Mormons and the Irish?
You'd be wanting to have put 1000t+ of supplies, building equipment, 3D printers, a small hospital, excavators and science before any kind of base was started. You'd want a science base for several decades of testing and research before anyone came to colonies, then is would be decades of construction before a fare paying passenger arrived.
Toaster said:
Where is the Oxygen coming from
Cracked from CO2 with solar/nuclearToaster said:
How are the people being protected from radiation
By living UndergroundToaster said:
What is the long term effects on the human body of 1/3 gravity
It will kill you about 1/3rd as quick as microgravity does, probably 6-10yrs max at current best guess.Toaster said:
What about supplies until the garden of eden can be grown
350t's arrive every 2yrs minimum plus whatever is supplied in advance.Toaster said:
does the radiation affect the plant seeds? and the food that is eaten
Yes, it will be a major problem, solved by the use of Potatoes.Toaster said:
What are the energy sources to be used?
Only two choices, both will be required from the start.Toaster said:
How much water is needed
Lots, if pre-colonisation exploration doesn't find an adequate sub-surface supply the dream is over.Toaster said:
What is the long term Psychological impact on human health
people will go nuts, regularly... as they do in Submarines and Antarctic bases, only 24month wait to send them home.Toaster said:
Who is going to pay for all of this?
Oh, a question common sense can't answer... I'm not sure anyone knows... maybe we should steal underpants?Toaster said:
there needs to be practical answers and discussions
Why does there "need" to be discussion? EM has made his mind up, he is building the railroad, other than NASA who wants a ticket?Toaster said:
this isn't Star Trek,
Erm... technically it is... they do wish to boldly go where no man has gone before, if you're lucky the Captain will quote Shakespeare, the ships councillor will be hot and the ship will defy the laws of physics and not fall apart...Pointlessly asking a load of obvious questions doesn't solve any of the issues right now. SpaceX haven't built their SpaceShip... when they have the capability to take Humans anywhere in the Solar System we will have to solve those issues, in the mean time they do have enough ducks in line for science exploration of the Moon, Mars and Asteroids, I for one am encouraged and look forward to that... but I will be staying here thank you.
garyhun said:
Do we know the level of funding that's required to make the Mars project a reality and whether that funding is totally in place?
Musk quoted figures in the presentation, one BFR + ITS looks like 1/2billion + on the road tax and fuel.£10billion to start a regular Mars service would tight probably... of course he skipped over the fact his system could also put 500t into LEO, you want a new ISS NASA, sure we can do that in one launch... the proposed launcher has a commercial angle too, they are not daft. An ITS with a big hatch for satellite launching, servicing and retrieval would be in constant demand.
garyhun said:
Do we know the level of funding that's required to make the Mars project a reality and whether that funding is totally in place?
I agree with you Eric about having a sensible side to the project BUT without the visionaries and their 'out there' dreaming, none of this ever even gets off the ground. It's a balancing act for sure.
I agree with you Eric about having a sensible side to the project BUT without the visionaries and their 'out there' dreaming, none of this ever even gets off the ground. It's a balancing act for sure.
There have been visionaries for years, however what Space X has been good at to try and get this off the ground is not revolutionising rocketry as such as its bringing known technologies together, utilising a rapid development methodology and wrapping them in a commercial package e.g. a lower cost reusable rocket, they are just commercialising how it's done along with great marketing.
scubadude said:
Erm... technically it is... they do wish to boldly go where no man has gone before, if you're lucky the Captain will quote Shakespeare, the ships councillor will be hot and the ship will defy the laws of physics and not fall apart...
Pointlessly asking a load of obvious questions doesn't solve any of the issues right now. SpaceX haven't built their SpaceShip... when they have the capability to take Humans anywhere in the Solar System we will have to solve those issues, in the mean time they do have enough ducks in line for science exploration of the Moon, Mars and Asteroids, I for one am encouraged and look forward to that... but I will be staying here thank you.
Fantastic response Pointlessly asking a load of obvious questions doesn't solve any of the issues right now. SpaceX haven't built their SpaceShip... when they have the capability to take Humans anywhere in the Solar System we will have to solve those issues, in the mean time they do have enough ducks in line for science exploration of the Moon, Mars and Asteroids, I for one am encouraged and look forward to that... but I will be staying here thank you.
red_slr said:
I think its all super interesting. It going to be a long term investment but imagine being the first company to look for resources, ok its a massive gamble but lets say they discovered platinum or something large deposits. They would then control the supply. That said, I think if mars was littered with precious metals we would have already been by now or at least had a few tries!
It's all in here!
red_slr said:
I think its all super interesting. It going to be a long term investment but imagine being the first company to look for resources, ok its a massive gamble but lets say they discovered platinum or something large deposits. They would then control the supply. That said, I think if mars was littered with precious metals we would have already been by now or at least had a few tries!
Musk once said even if we knew there were pallets of cash sitting on Mars shrink wrapped and ready to load it wouldn't be worth going to get them.A few ultra valuable things could in principal be a net positive to retrieve but more likely you'd be better off spending less money and just digging more holes here.
RobDickinson said:
Musks idea of costs are absurd, and I say that as a pro musk person.
250 million or something for the spaceship part? Crazy. A 777 is 300 million and that's with scale and competition etc.
Musk thinks he can build a Mars travelling spaceship for less?
He will or he won't. It will only cost me what I choose to contribute. I hope he can, it would be an improvement on the current state of affairs; since he's a private businessman, albeit admittedly one who gains some benefit from the US teat, however, it costs me nothing, either way.250 million or something for the spaceship part? Crazy. A 777 is 300 million and that's with scale and competition etc.
Musk thinks he can build a Mars travelling spaceship for less?
To be fair I use paypal occasionally...
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