Discussion
otolith said:
If it does work, the theoretical physicists are going to have a ball figuring out how the hell it does it. Could be all sorts of interesting science falling out as a result.
Yep - very interesting times.The application of such technology could be virtually limitless - and most importantly hoverboards just like in BTTF2 may actually become reality
Setting aside all of the babble about potential applications, someone has an experiment which appears to do something it should not, and which continues to do something it should not when independently replicated. That's an interesting science story - there is something interesting going on there. Whether it's a peculiar effect which will eventually be explained by existing theory or a demonstration of something fundamental which we don't currently understand, we will have to wait and see. The former is the more likely, the latter the more exciting.
ash73 said:
Telegraph article here not sure if there's anything new.
One interesting aspect to me is the possibility of an interstellar probe; the article claims 100 years to Alpha Centauri instead of tens of thousands of years. Various efforts to detect planets here are failing, let's just go have a look. It would be a magnificent achievement and there could be an Earth 2.0 right on our doorstep.
The interesting thing for me is that its an electric propulsion system so will just need some fancy circuit boards and some solar panels, no need to hoist tonnes of fuel into space, the fact it generates so much thrust is a bonus but the main thing for me is no fuel, it simplifies and cheapens so many aspects of space travel, even if its found to not generate the level of thrust that they currently think it does, its still a massive leap forward. One interesting aspect to me is the possibility of an interstellar probe; the article claims 100 years to Alpha Centauri instead of tens of thousands of years. Various efforts to detect planets here are failing, let's just go have a look. It would be a magnificent achievement and there could be an Earth 2.0 right on our doorstep.
otolith said:
The test bed is generating absolutely tiny amounts of thrust, to be fair - the Germans have measured a force equivalent to the weight of an object weighing 2 milligrams.
Its not how much but how long that's important for space travel, if you can produce 2 milligrams for decades or centuries then the speed builds up, an interstellar probe with a nuclear reactor and some form of electric drive could potentially reach a considerable % of CIndeed - but it's not going to revolutionise transit times within our solar system at that sort of level. Applying that force to the New Horizons probe for the last nine and a half years would only have increased its speed by about 28mph. If there is a usable effect there it's going to need to be much more efficiently exploited.
otolith said:
Indeed - but it's not going to revolutionise transit times within our solar system at that sort of level. Applying that force to the New Horizons probe for the last nine and a half years would only have increased its speed by about 28mph. If there is a usable effect there it's going to need to be much more efficiently exploited.
But if its not carrying fuel, the probe could go out to pluto, then turn around and come back. No fuel also means its lighter payload and a very cleaver guy designed and built it in his kitchen using parts from a microwave, copper sheet and im guessing some more complicated stuff that he knocked up himself.Its like the experiments that took place using mobile phones as the main part of a simple satellite/probe. Its remarkably cheap.
otolith said:
Indeed - but it's not going to revolutionise transit times within our solar system at that sort of level. Applying that force to the New Horizons probe for the last nine and a half years would only have increased its speed by about 28mph. If there is a usable effect there it's going to need to be much more efficiently exploited.
I doubt they have explored anywhere near the limits of the technology. Proof of concepts often start off very slowly - especially with something like this which was, until recently, thought to be nothing more than pseudoscience - but once that concept is proven technology has a habit of making massive leaps and bounds - especially if it's commercially exploitable. Just look at how much integrated circuits have come on in the ~60 years since their invention. Imagine if this technology were to evolve at such a rapid pace?
If significant levels of thrust can be achieved with future models - this could have applications well beyond pushing space probes around (transport, logistics, leisure, architecture etc).
Even if this technology ultimately only delivers relatively low thrust space probe engines (like the ion engine) - it could still revolutionise exploration of the solar system. Probes will no longer have to carry fuel for thrusting - meaning they can be smaller, lighter, make larger course corrections and even go on grand tours. Imagine if new horizons could slow itself down, head back to pluto and go into orbit.
Edited by Moonhawk on Wednesday 29th July 14:09
Moonhawk said:
I doubt they have explored anywhere near the limits of the technology. Proof of concepts often start off very slowly - especially with something like this which was, until recently, thought to be nothing more than pseudoscience - but once that concept is proven technology has a habit of making massive leaps and bounds - especially if it's commercially exploitable.
Just look at how much integrated circuits have come on in the ~60 years since their invention. Imagine if this technology were to evolve at such a rapid pace?
If significant levels of thrust can be achieved with future models - this could have applications well beyond pushing space probes around (transport, logistics, leisure, architecture etc).
Quite so, if there is a real effect there it could be revolutionary. Look at the technology relying on lasers, which were initially little more than a curiosity.Just look at how much integrated circuits have come on in the ~60 years since their invention. Imagine if this technology were to evolve at such a rapid pace?
If significant levels of thrust can be achieved with future models - this could have applications well beyond pushing space probes around (transport, logistics, leisure, architecture etc).
We shall have to wait and see.
otolith said:
It wouldn't have to carry propellant, but it would need a power source. Maybe solar, probably more likely an atomic battery or small reactor.
Yep - but most probes carry all that stuff anyway.The advantage is that as long as the power source holds out - it'll never run out of thrust. Even ion engines run out of propellant eventually.
ash73 said:
I've thought of a good application for these; pacman-like automated drones that can rove about tugging space junk out of orbit so it burns up, then boosting back into orbit themselves and carrying on. If they are solar/EM powered they could carry on indefinitely, until the job is done.
Just been watching a documentary on BBC2 about space junk and they had some crazy idea using a chemical rocket and a single shot harpoon... madness
Better to put them in a scrapyard, to recycle the materials, when we have the capability.Just been watching a documentary on BBC2 about space junk and they had some crazy idea using a chemical rocket and a single shot harpoon... madness
Ali G said:
E=mc^2
Energy and mass are related.
Providing a means to convert energy into matter may be somewhat tricky - but would generate some form of 'propellant' from energy alone.
The rest would be basic 'rocket science'
As E=mc^2 states, you need an enormous amount of energy to create a tiny amount of mass. I don't know what the input energy vs thrust is for this EM drive, but the fact the nozzle is closed suggests that it's not traditional Newtonian rocket science at work?Energy and mass are related.
Providing a means to convert energy into matter may be somewhat tricky - but would generate some form of 'propellant' from energy alone.
The rest would be basic 'rocket science'
Caruso said:
as E=mc^2 states, you need an enormous amount of energy to create a tiny amount of mass.
And while converting mass to energy has been demonstrated effecively, not sure the same can be said of energy to mass.
Caruso said:
I don't know what the input energy vs thrust is for this EM drive, but the fact the nozzle is closed suggests that it's not traditional Newtonian rocket science at work?
Ahhh - nozzle is closed - I was assuming that there may have been some attempt to eject high energy photons (which would at least have mmomentum). Even then, fairly certain this would be an ineffective form of propulsion!Just further random thoughts!
If you 'circulate' electrons - you can generate magnetism within a ferromagnetic rod around which they circulate.
This is old hat electromagnetism - wire wrapped around iron rod.
One presumes that by using a closed micro-wave resonator, there may a possibility of setting up some form of EM standing wave circulating the core of the cavity.
I certainly have no clue if this can generate any effect at all - perhaps this has been done before?
If you 'circulate' electrons - you can generate magnetism within a ferromagnetic rod around which they circulate.
This is old hat electromagnetism - wire wrapped around iron rod.
One presumes that by using a closed micro-wave resonator, there may a possibility of setting up some form of EM standing wave circulating the core of the cavity.
I certainly have no clue if this can generate any effect at all - perhaps this has been done before?
So NASA have done yet more tests and it still works.....interesting.
Also the inventor says NASA are way behind private companies who are seriously saying they will be able to levitate cars in a couple of years!
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-future-space-tra...
Also the inventor says NASA are way behind private companies who are seriously saying they will be able to levitate cars in a couple of years!
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-future-space-tra...
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