Discussion
As I pointed out in the similar thread in the News Forum (Mods - any chance of thinning the multiple threads down as it's hard to keep up), the whole launch sequence from about 2 minutes in is all cockeyed.
The escape tower seems to have fired at the same time the strap-ons were jettisoned. That is not normal. The escape tower goes about one minute later in a normal launch.
The escape tower seems to have fired at the same time the strap-ons were jettisoned. That is not normal. The escape tower goes about one minute later in a normal launch.
Eric Mc said:
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Maybe it wasn't actually bolted to the capsule?
The question is, why did it fire so early in the launch sequence?Supposition on my part without all the facts or a timeline of course.
Like they'd NEVER forget to bolt the tractor system on properly...
Edited by Kccv23highliftcam on Thursday 11th October 13:29
The escape tower would normally fire automatically if it sensed something was going wrong with the booster. Obviously, if this is what was going on, the tower should, naturally, pull the Soyuz spacecraft with it to safety. That is what the escape tower is for.
It's not clear from the footage whether the escape tower actually pulled the capsule with it or whether it flew off on its own. Whatever happened, it certainly left the scene way earlier than it normally would in a launch that was going OK.
Whatever was going wrong does seem to be linked to that moment in the launch sequence when the side boosters are jettisoned.
It's not clear from the footage whether the escape tower actually pulled the capsule with it or whether it flew off on its own. Whatever happened, it certainly left the scene way earlier than it normally would in a launch that was going OK.
Whatever was going wrong does seem to be linked to that moment in the launch sequence when the side boosters are jettisoned.
iirc, on US rockets the escape tower system includes an automatic firing system that has 3 wires running down the full length of the main rocket body, should any 2 of the three wires be broken, then it's "adios amigos" without any human intervention required. The idea is that a critical structural failure or significant motor damage (things like turbopumps going pop) immediately triggers the escape system.
Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Max_Torque said:
iirc, on US rockets the escape tower system includes an automatic firing system that has 3 wires running down the full length of the main rocket body, should any 2 of the three wires be broken, then it's "adios amigos" without any human intervention required. The idea is that a critical structural failure or significant motor damage (things like turbopumps going pop) immediately triggers the escape system.
Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Yes but it's supposed to take the crew compartment with it...Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Back in the very early days of US manned spaceflight there was an infamous episode where the escape tower on a Mercury Redstone took off, leaving the Mercury capsule behind sitting on the rocket -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0w_xyePC_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0w_xyePC_0
Eric Mc said:
Back in the very early days of US manned spaceflight there was an infamous episode where the escape tower on a Mercury Redstone took off, leaving the Mercury capsule behind sitting on the rocket -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0w_xyePC_0
Might have hoped they'd got a bit better at it in the intervening fifty odd years...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0w_xyePC_0
carl_w said:
Max_Torque said:
iirc, on US rockets the escape tower system includes an automatic firing system that has 3 wires running down the full length of the main rocket body, should any 2 of the three wires be broken, then it's "adios amigos" without any human intervention required. The idea is that a critical structural failure or significant motor damage (things like turbopumps going pop) immediately triggers the escape system.
Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Yes but it's supposed to take the crew compartment with it...Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
If the auto abort system is smart enough to recognise that the 1st stage has a problem but the 2nd stage is still intact, then it could decide that the spacecraft doesn't need the escape rocket but can depart under its own power.
Either way, has there been any confirmation that the escape rocket didn't take the crew compartment with it ?
Max_Torque said:
iirc, on US rockets the escape tower system includes an automatic firing system that has 3 wires running down the full length of the main rocket body, should any 2 of the three wires be broken, then it's "adios amigos" without any human intervention required. The idea is that a critical structural failure or significant motor damage (things like turbopumps going pop) immediately triggers the escape system.
Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Isn't that the old style self destruct system?Assuming the Russians do something similar (and why wouldn't they?) then if the LES triggers at booster separation something has gone very wrong at that moment!
Appologies if I'm getting mixed up.
I watched without sound. Looked odd, debris and shaking then they just cut to graphics showing everything OK...?
So... Very dodgy Russian space program strikes again glad the passengers are OK.
Puts problems in front of the iss crew.
Current soyuz up there isn't rated to stay for much longer, can / will they leave the iss crew less or extend, hope they can send up a new unscrewed soyuz? Or risk the current one for longer?
Nasa has to speed up their USA crewed options..
So... Very dodgy Russian space program strikes again glad the passengers are OK.
Puts problems in front of the iss crew.
Current soyuz up there isn't rated to stay for much longer, can / will they leave the iss crew less or extend, hope they can send up a new unscrewed soyuz? Or risk the current one for longer?
Nasa has to speed up their USA crewed options..
As said above glad everyone is safe and the contingency procedures worked out fine. I assume I'm right in thinking this is the first time a manned mission has been aborted at this stage of flight, Eric?
Wrt the escape tower jettison, it may be that at this phase of the flight they get rid of it if the launch vehicle is in controlled flight, just lacking thrust.
Reasons I can think of are,
1) Not wanting to add to the velocity of the capsule so that it comes down over land/as soon as possible.
2) Firing the escape system when the crew are not in immediate danger could add unnecessary risk.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.
Got to be annoying for the crew, once they get over the euphoria of still being alive.
Wrt the escape tower jettison, it may be that at this phase of the flight they get rid of it if the launch vehicle is in controlled flight, just lacking thrust.
Reasons I can think of are,
1) Not wanting to add to the velocity of the capsule so that it comes down over land/as soon as possible.
2) Firing the escape system when the crew are not in immediate danger could add unnecessary risk.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.
Got to be annoying for the crew, once they get over the euphoria of still being alive.
From what I have read, there have been two other failures, but not at the same stage in the flight (happy to be corrected with this):
1. Soyuz 7K-T No.39 - April 1975 - (as pointed out by Eric above) - 2nd and 3rd stages failed to separate. Crew landed ok but rolled down a hill and nearly off the edge of a cliff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_7K-T_No.39
2. Soyuz T10 A - September 1983 - Caught fire on the launch pad. Crew were sent to safety by the escape tower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_7K-ST_No._16L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFF4cpMVag
1. Soyuz 7K-T No.39 - April 1975 - (as pointed out by Eric above) - 2nd and 3rd stages failed to separate. Crew landed ok but rolled down a hill and nearly off the edge of a cliff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_7K-T_No.39
2. Soyuz T10 A - September 1983 - Caught fire on the launch pad. Crew were sent to safety by the escape tower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_7K-ST_No._16L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFF4cpMVag
Yes - this is the third abort in the Soyuz programme. All three were a bit different.
I am pretty sure that the escape tower was NOT used to pull the capsule clear. It was jettisoned on its own and then the capsule separated of its own accord to carry on in a ballistic arc. By the time the problem occurred, I think the rocket was high enough (50 km plus) that the escape tower was not needed.
As to what caused the abort, I think something exploded at the moment the four boosters were jettisoned. You can see a lot of debris in addition to tumbling boosters. I also think the core section of the booster was knocked off course by the explosion. It looks like it has slewed sideways in the video if you look carefully. By then, the abort procedures would have automatically kicked in.
Watch Scott Manley's explanation and his talk through of the launch video. He also features another view of the launch from a different camera angle and the errant strap on booster is more apparent.
1.30 in the video below -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpqq0i4w_fM
I am pretty sure that the escape tower was NOT used to pull the capsule clear. It was jettisoned on its own and then the capsule separated of its own accord to carry on in a ballistic arc. By the time the problem occurred, I think the rocket was high enough (50 km plus) that the escape tower was not needed.
As to what caused the abort, I think something exploded at the moment the four boosters were jettisoned. You can see a lot of debris in addition to tumbling boosters. I also think the core section of the booster was knocked off course by the explosion. It looks like it has slewed sideways in the video if you look carefully. By then, the abort procedures would have automatically kicked in.
Watch Scott Manley's explanation and his talk through of the launch video. He also features another view of the launch from a different camera angle and the errant strap on booster is more apparent.
1.30 in the video below -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpqq0i4w_fM
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