Universe is not real and is instead a giant simulation
Discussion
I find it easy to believe we are among the 1st intelligent species to evolve in the Universe. The following observations are based on our current understanding of the Universe:
At 4.5 billion years old, the Earth is about 1/3 the age of the Universe (15 billion years)
The Earth will continue to exist in some form for another 5 billion years until the Sun engulfs it.
So the Earth's overall lifespan could be half the age of the universe.
All of the atomic elements that make up ourselves and our complex society weren't around in the early universe. Gold for instance only gets created when a really big star goes supernova.
We've not been contacted by any alien intelligence (that we know of)
It all leads me to believe we're in one of the early generations of solar systems and planets in the Universe, and possibly the 1st generation with such a wide variety of atomic elements.
At 4.5 billion years old, the Earth is about 1/3 the age of the Universe (15 billion years)
The Earth will continue to exist in some form for another 5 billion years until the Sun engulfs it.
So the Earth's overall lifespan could be half the age of the universe.
All of the atomic elements that make up ourselves and our complex society weren't around in the early universe. Gold for instance only gets created when a really big star goes supernova.
We've not been contacted by any alien intelligence (that we know of)
It all leads me to believe we're in one of the early generations of solar systems and planets in the Universe, and possibly the 1st generation with such a wide variety of atomic elements.
R E S T E C P said:
SilverSixer said:
The article misses one obvious possibility, and it's the one I'd be most inclined to believe. That we are the first species ever to reach this level of civilisation/technology in the Universe.
That seems much more plausible than the three options as outlined.
Really? I know a lot of very clever people believe this, but..... really??That seems much more plausible than the three options as outlined.
But I'm not 'very clever people', just a mediocre schlub with a passing interest in scientific/philosophical matters.
While I am open to anything I don't believe we are in a simulation.
Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
SilverSixer said:
R E S T E C P said:
SilverSixer said:
The article misses one obvious possibility, and it's the one I'd be most inclined to believe. That we are the first species ever to reach this level of civilisation/technology in the Universe.
That seems much more plausible than the three options as outlined.
Really? I know a lot of very clever people believe this, but..... really??That seems much more plausible than the three options as outlined.
xjay1337 said:
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
You're thinking of it as a digitally programmed simulation using present-day technology - eg. The Sims. But that's not necessarily the technology that would be used, we might not have invented the technology yet (just like The Sims would have been impossible in very recent history).In order to simulate "life" to a degree that present-day people believe that it is real life with free will, grief, love, etc... Well, I don't know how that could be done, but The Sims is not enough. I am confident that future people will find a way (it might not "trick" them, because they will know better, but it would convince us).
xjay1337 said:
While I am open to anything I don't believe we are in a simulation.
Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
Everything you think you have ever decided was the result of a chemical/electrical process in your brain. Of course it can be simulated. Maybe not by us. But by something cleverer than us.Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
010101 said:
Is it not a flaw in the nature of many men and women to forever and forlornly search out an ultimate true and inequivocable purpose of the self?
How can joy spring from the lack of discovery of a thing so dear to us.
There is no self How can joy spring from the lack of discovery of a thing so dear to us.
Edited by 010101 on Tuesday 6th September 04:46
SpeckledJim said:
xjay1337 said:
While I am open to anything I don't believe we are in a simulation.
Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
Everything you think you have ever decided was the result of a chemical/electrical process in your brain. Of course it can be simulated. Maybe not by us. But by something cleverer than us.Funny I found this topic as I was just watching this video on the subject -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hfx07UhmEU
How can you simulate free will?
That is ultimately the one construct - and you simply cannot account for free will in any simulation.
A simulation is a given set of parameters.
For example in the Sims on PC or whatever. If you input X, Y happens. While it may seem random to us, it is all coded and scripted.
But if I sit there and think, should I have Coco Pops or Frosties for Breakfast, you can't simulate my decision.
Because the realisation that, if we were in a simulation there must be bugs. Like in the Matrix, you can jump high, slow time, whatever - That is a simulation. In our life we are bound by rules of physics.
How can you simulate grief, love, elation? You can't - There are simply too many variables for it to be an accurate simulation without some kind of bug to have been discovered by now.
Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
With enough processing power it can be simulated.
SpeckledJim said:
Everything you think you have ever decided was the result of a chemical/electrical process in your brain. Of course it can be simulated. Maybe not by us. But by something cleverer than us.
Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
So a sophisticated simulation would need sentience? It might also find there's a bit more to simulating a human being than the ability to copy the decision making process. How d'you teach a simulation empathy? On the other hand maybe it wouldn't need it.Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
smn159 said:
Indeed. What exactly is 'free will' anyway? What we have is most likely an illusion of free will. As above, thoughts arise spontaneously in your subconscious as a result of a chemical / electrical process and driven by a number of variables including past experiences. It's been shown that 'conscious' decisions to take action are made before you are even aware of them.
With enough processing power it can be simulated.
I have just decided that I want Chicken Nuggets for dinner.With enough processing power it can be simulated.
Isn't that free will?
Mothersruin said:
The scary/sad aspect of the Fermi Paradox is that if we are, and will be, the only manifestation of intelligent life through the randomness of the perfect conditions, then what a waste.
Unless things radically change, the planet and the universe will be far better off without us.
Indeed. And nobody around to enjoy and wonder at it all. Until the next time..Unless things radically change, the planet and the universe will be far better off without us.
xjay1337 said:
smn159 said:
Indeed. What exactly is 'free will' anyway? What we have is most likely an illusion of free will. As above, thoughts arise spontaneously in your subconscious as a result of a chemical / electrical process and driven by a number of variables including past experiences. It's been shown that 'conscious' decisions to take action are made before you are even aware of them.
With enough processing power it can be simulated.
I have just decided that I want Chicken Nuggets for dinner.With enough processing power it can be simulated.
Isn't that free will?
Your past experiences have led to you making that decision.
If you factor in:
1) Every food that you know exists
2) The exact quantities of those foods that you have eaten
3) The surroundings at the time when you ate those foods
4) How you were feeling when you ate those foods
5) The temperature of the foods while you ate them
6) The temperature of the air around you
7) The noises you heard while eating them, and the memories/thoughts that those brought up
8) Every detail of every other event that happened while you were forming your long-term memory of those foods
... And another few trillion factors
... And you built a computer that was able to record every minute detail of every factor of your life to a molecular level of detail
... And it had enough processing power
... Then maybe it could predict that you would decide that you want chicken nuggets at that exact moment.
We already have computers that can do all of that! But we didn't invent them, we're born with them. Looking at the rate technology is advancing, I think we'll get there in less than the time human civilisation has already existed.
xjay1337 said:
smn159 said:
Indeed. What exactly is 'free will' anyway? What we have is most likely an illusion of free will. As above, thoughts arise spontaneously in your subconscious as a result of a chemical / electrical process and driven by a number of variables including past experiences. It's been shown that 'conscious' decisions to take action are made before you are even aware of them.
With enough processing power it can be simulated.
I have just decided that I want Chicken Nuggets for dinner.With enough processing power it can be simulated.
Isn't that free will?
You can call it free-will if you like, but that might be a bit arrogant, since your can't say why your decision is what it is.
It's unsettling to think about, but xjay1337 responds basically completely predictably, once you know enough detail about him.
It's knowing that level of detail that (to us, at the moment) is unmanageable.
popeyewhite said:
SpeckledJim said:
Everything you think you have ever decided was the result of a chemical/electrical process in your brain. Of course it can be simulated. Maybe not by us. But by something cleverer than us.
Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
So a sophisticated simulation would need sentience? It might also find there's a bit more to simulating a human being than the ability to copy the decision making process. How d'you teach a simulation empathy? On the other hand maybe it wouldn't need it.Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
There is no difference between actual sentience, and seamlessly persuasive imitation.
For all you know, I am a computer. Are you persuaded that I'm sentient? And if you are, does that mean I actually am, or could I still be a sophisticated simulation.
A sophisticated simulation will feel themselves to be sentient. That's at the heart of what makes it sophisticated.
SpeckledJim said:
popeyewhite said:
SpeckledJim said:
Everything you think you have ever decided was the result of a chemical/electrical process in your brain. Of course it can be simulated. Maybe not by us. But by something cleverer than us.
Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
So a sophisticated simulation would need sentience? It might also find there's a bit more to simulating a human being than the ability to copy the decision making process. How d'you teach a simulation empathy? On the other hand maybe it wouldn't need it.Of course, if you were a sophisticated simulation the one thing you would be programmed not to think is that you are a sophisticated simulation.
There is no difference between actual sentience, and seamlessly persuasive imitation.
For all you know, I am a computer. Are you persuaded that I'm sentient? And if you are, does that mean I actually am, or could I still be a sophisticated simulation.
A sophisticated simulation will feel themselves to be sentient. That's at the heart of what makes it sophisticated.
Maybe nobody else is sentient - I'm the only one and you're all AI simulations!If I could transplant my consciousness into your brain (or a computer/simulation/whatever) I could say "Hey, this really IS sentient!"
... But that would make no difference to anyone other than myself, because how would anyone else know if I'm sentient or not?
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