What to do about Human Induced Climate Change
Discussion
RobM77 said:
mondeoman said:
Mmcc is unproven. All that is known is that co2 has the ability to absorb and emit ir. All else is supposition and modelling. As before, global human co2 emissions flat for the last three years, yet atmospheric co2 still increasing and temps stable. Things just don't correlate at all.
Just because you don't understand something, it doesn't make it untrue! CO2 emissions have not increased in the last three years, but atmospheric CO2 has because there's a lag between the two of about 20 years. That's a well understood process, not a gap in understanding. 
As for temperatures, scientists are doing a bit more than just sitting there drawing graphs and spotting correlations, there are a whole host of factors that one needs to take into account to isolate MMC, and looking at a three year period of global temperatures is very bad science - that doesn't mean anything.I didn't mention 3 years of temperatures, you might've inferred it but it wasn't stated. IIRC it's 15, but don't let that get in the way.
Edited by mondeoman on Saturday 19th November 13:55
RobM77 said:
mondeoman said:
Mmcc is unproven. All that is known is that co2 has the ability to absorb and emit ir. All else is supposition and modelling. As before, global human co2 emissions flat for the last three years, yet atmospheric co2 still increasing and temps stable. Things just don't correlate at all.
Just because you don't understand something, it doesn't make it untrue! CO2 emissions have not increased in the last three years, but atmospheric CO2 has because there's a lag between the two of about 20 years. edit. see IPCC FAQ 10.3 - If Emissions of Greenhouse Gases are Reduced, How Quickly do Their Concentrations in the Atmosphere Decrease?
https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/...
Check out the black line in figure 1(a). If emissions are held level at todays values, CO2 concentrations carry on increasing at a linear rate.
Edited by plunker on Saturday 19th November 19:32
Before this descends into another science argument which is not what the thread is supposed to be about...
We can save about 1 billion tonnes of CO2, the equivalent of the worlds aviation emissions by taxing food.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/19/uk-research...
Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
We can save about 1 billion tonnes of CO2, the equivalent of the worlds aviation emissions by taxing food.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/19/uk-research...
Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
jurbie said:
Before this descends into another science argument which is not what the thread is supposed to be about...
We can save about 1 billion tonnes of CO2, the equivalent of the worlds aviation emissions by taxing food.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/19/uk-research...
Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
Only if you believe in it.We can save about 1 billion tonnes of CO2, the equivalent of the worlds aviation emissions by taxing food.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/19/uk-research...
Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
Please feel free to send us screen dumps of all of your future greenpeace donations.
article said:
A group of researchers in Oxford University, England have suggested that imposing a massive tax on carbon intensive foods – specifically protein rich foods like meat and dairy – could help combat climate change.
The article only even claims "could help". As ever it's all about the money. Greenpeace can lick my left one.More interestingly, what should we do about Human Induced Purple Unicorns?
jurbie said:
We can save about 1 billion tonnes of CO2, the equivalent of the worlds aviation emissions by taxing food.
Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
'Not sure if serious'Is this the future? Should we care about the affects on the poorest in society?
As climate change is such a pressing issue is anyone on this thread going to adopt such measures voluntarily? Easy enough to do, just go through your weekly shop and add 40% to any beef products and 20% to other meats and dairy. You can then send the money to Greenpeace or some other worthy charity.
RobM77 said:
...CO2...
Which, according to ice cores going back hundreds of thousands of years lags behind warming which would suggest that......warming causes CO2 (not the other way around).
The mechanism for this is very simple. There is a lot of gas dissolved in the ocean. It takes a couple of hundred years for a surface warming to get down to the ocean depths so now, 250 years after the Frost Fairs, we are seeing a CO2 rise.
Oh and warming also occurred in the past:
carcases of lions and hyenas have been dredged out of ancient silt in the UK indicating that since the last ice age the UK has had a period of much hotter climate.
Species of insect have been dug out of silt in the Wash, from Roman times, that now only exist in the Mediterranean.
When the Romans arrived they planted vineyards.
Malaria was common in England in the late Middle Ages
The Thames regularly froze over in the 1700s hence the Frost Fairs
The typical temperature of Earth is several C hotter than it is now. You need to go back to Snowball Earth to find a significant period colder than the last big ice age, one that we still pulling out of.
In summary, it's natural, it's normally a bit hotter, there are plenty of ups and downs over the last ten millennia, many of them happened quite suddenly.
However that still leaves the problem of climate change, an Ice Age would be devastating to our civilisation as would a return to the long term normal, should we think of a way to ensure it never happens?
Simpo Two said:
'Not sure if serious'
Oh deadly serious. If folks think that this is such a problem (I don't by the way) then why aren't they taking action themselves instead of waiting for the government to sort it out?It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Toltec said:
Wrong question.
What should we do about energy sustainability and human environmental impact?
I don't think climate change is induced by humans, though we may be influencing it. One of the main problems I have CC is that it distracts us from other pressing environmental issues.
So what we should do is address how we can sustain an increasing population why increasingly higher standards of living and HICC , if it exists, will come out in the wash.
This. In my opinion, from what I have read on the subject, we are likely having some influence but in the grander scheme we are just noise about an underlying trend. Bigger forces than us are at play and its always been this way (and we always underestimate nature). The climate has always changed. It always will and life will adapt to survive as it has done over millions of years. Don't forget our time on this planet is microscopic in contrast to its age... I don't really think we have enough data either way to call a trend on anything and most of the stuff presented isn't data but tortured model results with no validation to back it up. What should we do about energy sustainability and human environmental impact?
I don't think climate change is induced by humans, though we may be influencing it. One of the main problems I have CC is that it distracts us from other pressing environmental issues.
So what we should do is address how we can sustain an increasing population why increasingly higher standards of living and HICC , if it exists, will come out in the wash.
We should be focusing on spending to adapt to the changes, not foolishly trying to prevent something we probably have little control over anyway.
Having said that.... I do also feel we need to be weening off forms of fossil fuels. They're not all bad IMO, natural gas is perhaps one of the cleanest and most abundant. But you can't ignore the more local effects of burning things like coal or heavy oils; the particulates, the Nox emissions etc.
Its the same for cars; they've focused too hard and long on CO2 (a gas that isn't even noted as a pollutant) to the detriment of others like PM and NOX which do have real, noticeable and local effects. They are however waking up to this now.
My other problem with the ICE is that in over 100 years of use, research and development its core thermal efficiency is still only in the region of 30-40% at best. Considering the sheer energy density of the fuel used, its a crying shame 2/3rds of it is lost. Imagine what we could do if we could harness it!
Electric cars solve some of the problems, especially re local pollution. But their manufacture impacts the earth in other ways. So they're not the silver bullet.
I wouldn't like to move from our current luxury of cheap power 24/7. I think that is a great thing. But its going to be difficult to keep it up if we don't find someway to match the ridiculous chemical energy contained in fossil fuels. Without cheap gas you'd never be able to make steel for a reasonable price for instance... and so on. Fields of wind turbines and solar panels are not the answer. Too expensive, too intermittent for our way of life.
I do think we need to stop with the cheap Chinese crap; cheap plastic tat, cheap synthetic clothes etc etc all well and good but the current trend is that they don't last and people just throw s
t away and replace it with more cheap crap. This is incredibly wasteful in my opinion. People need to get used to buying stuff, good quality stuff that and having to keep it and keep it working for a long time.I think the business world needs to shake the mantra of "growing". Its all about growing the business, year on year growth. Selling more, making more money every year. You cannot grow indefinitely. Not sustainable.
I'd like to see homes become more self sufficient. With the likes of Tesla's new roof tiles and their power wall system I think that could be a possibility for many parts of the world.
Ultimately I'd like to see more nuclear power as well.... but the hand wringers seem even more frothy over this than climate change. The answer to a large part of their CO2 woes is right there, and they won't allow it. You are not going to get a more energy-dense power station. How many fields upon fields full of solar panels and wind turbines (all intermittent as well) do they want? They're not an efficient use of land. Solar is a bit better because you can go to the roof tops. But wind turbines are a complete folly in my book.
Biggest problem I see with this entire "issue" is that the whole thing is based on historical data (some of which is of dubious accuracy) and unproven models.
However, if you do nothing and it's real then the consequences could be quite severe and there's no quick remedy. To do something meaningful requires all nations on the planet to do their bit and it's not going to be cheap. But, given that reserves of fossil fuels are diminishing, it makes sense to at least begin to move towards other means of power generation.
However, if you do nothing and it's real then the consequences could be quite severe and there's no quick remedy. To do something meaningful requires all nations on the planet to do their bit and it's not going to be cheap. But, given that reserves of fossil fuels are diminishing, it makes sense to at least begin to move towards other means of power generation.
I've been in the middle of the Sahara picking up 15,000yr old arrow heads from when it was all forest. That sort of change will happen again eventually, irrespective of what we do. Given the magnitude of past and future climate changes, I tend to think CO2 levels don't amount to a hill of beans.
UK should have continued investing being the world leaders in nuclear engineering rather than have a 20yr hiatus; who knows, we may have had viable fusion by now.
People talk of 'killing the planet', but the planet and nature won't die. Humans may do, but give it another 5 million years and the dolphins may well be in charge again...
UK should have continued investing being the world leaders in nuclear engineering rather than have a 20yr hiatus; who knows, we may have had viable fusion by now.
People talk of 'killing the planet', but the planet and nature won't die. Humans may do, but give it another 5 million years and the dolphins may well be in charge again...
jurbie said:
Oh deadly serious. If folks think that this is such a problem (I don't by the way) then why aren't they taking action themselves instead of waiting for the government to sort it out?
It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Well, they take their old newspapers down to the tip in their new 4x4s. Or a great big extra dustcart spewing fumes and noise comes round with three men on board all on £30Kpa to take them away.It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
I'm sure that 7 billion humans are changing the climate, somehow, but the only practical thing to do, short of killing half of them, is cope with it.
Simpo Two said:
jurbie said:
Oh deadly serious. If folks think that this is such a problem (I don't by the way) then why aren't they taking action themselves instead of waiting for the government to sort it out?
It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Well, they take their old newspapers down to the tip in their new 4x4s. Or a great big extra dustcart spewing fumes and noise comes round with three men on board all on £30Kpa to take them away.It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
I'm sure that 7 billion humans are changing the climate, somehow, but the only practical thing to do, short of killing half of them, is cope with it.
I think this is going to be a new dark age and heck of a ride to extinction
jurbie said:
Oh deadly serious. If folks think that this is such a problem (I don't by the way) then why aren't they taking action themselves instead of waiting for the government to sort it out?
It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Its a global problem and the issues in the main are too big to really see in our cocooned world. It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Its complex and 'they' dont have all the answers but know the world is changing not just through natural processes. Humans are effecting the world its not all for the taking by humans, we share this world with other species and have no 'rights' to just take.
Go and read some of these articles critically think about them and then come back and discuss PM10's if Human interaction with the environment has no affect then these papers are nonsense but clearly that isn't the case https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=pm10%3Bs+an...
I also take the position that just because you have an opinion doesn't make a personal view right
Toaster said:
Simpo Two said:
jurbie said:
Oh deadly serious. If folks think that this is such a problem (I don't by the way) then why aren't they taking action themselves instead of waiting for the government to sort it out?
It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
Well, they take their old newspapers down to the tip in their new 4x4s. Or a great big extra dustcart spewing fumes and noise comes round with three men on board all on £30Kpa to take them away.It seems there are plenty who think something should be done but don't actually want to do anything themselves which is kind of the point of this thread.
I'm sure that 7 billion humans are changing the climate, somehow, but the only practical thing to do, short of killing half of them, is cope with it.
I think this is going to be a new dark age and heck of a ride to extinction
I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
Simpo Two said:
Get a grip. Whatever Trump does or does not do is of little significance. If he's bad, he'll be out in 5 years and a 'child of Obama' socialist will replace him and put everything back to how you like it.
I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
I was thinking that the other day, I also believe he will find there are far more limits/restraints on his power than he thinks there are.I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
Simpo Two said:
Well, they take their old newspapers down to the tip in their new 4x4s. Or a great big extra dustcart spewing fumes and noise comes round with three men on board all on £30Kpa to take them away.
I'm sure that 7 billion humans are changing the climate, somehow, but the only practical thing to do, short of killing half of them, is cope with it.
I'm sure that 7 billion humans are changing the climate, somehow, but the only practical thing to do, short of killing half of them, is cope with it.
Are you trying to say demonstrating, creating committees and creative accounting won't fix the climate?
Simpo Two said:
Get a grip. Whatever Trump does or does not do is of little significance. If he's bad, he'll be out in 5 years and a 'child of Obama' socialist will replace him and put everything back to how you like it.
I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
Maybe you should understand your hero a little more http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/world/europe/don...I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
Toaster said:
Simpo Two said:
Get a grip. Whatever Trump does or does not do is of little significance. If he's bad, he'll be out in 5 years and a 'child of Obama' socialist will replace him and put everything back to how you like it.
I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
Maybe you should understand your hero a little more http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/world/europe/don...I don't know if you are depressive, or defeatist, or suicidal, or just read the Guardian too much. A similar handwringing friend of mine 'we're all going to die' is quite convinced that soon we will be bayonetting Jews and Putin will nuke London. If that turns you on, keep wringing those hands. Maybe it's a cry for help.
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