Colonisation and novel disease transmission

[popeyewhite]

Simpo Two said:

I'm not keen on his programmes; wherever he goes he always manages to find something negative about it.

Yes, there's also the cringe of the white, privileged middle class explorer travelling upriver to explain how the natives should be left alone - whilst identifying their exact geographical position and glorifying their way of life. Some lovely camerawork though.

[Simpo Two]

popeyewhite said:

Simpo Two said:

I'm not keen on his programmes; wherever he goes he always manages to find something negative about it.

Yes, there's also the cringe of the white, privileged middle class explorer travelling upriver to explain how the natives should be left alone - whilst identifying their exact geographical position and glorifying their way of life. Some lovely camerawork though.

I don't find it a class issue; it would be just as bad if he was a Lord or a coal miner doing the same thing. And if Lenny Henry did it, would that be OK? It shouldn't be.

Ray Mears, that's who you need. Go to a remote tribe and eat all their food

[Mr E]

Old world tended to live closely with animals (farm stock etc.). Disease jumps the species barrier and the population is exposed to a number of “interesting” things.

First Nations etc did not to the same degree, got clobbered.
Decent slice of luck frankly, could have gone the other or both ways. Plague did a number on the old world a number of times.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

For anyone interested in this kind of thing, I'd recommend :

[ChevronB19]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

For anyone interested in this kind of thing, I'd recommend :

Bought, thanks for the tip. Another one to add to the ever growing ‘to read’ pile!

[Some Gump]

Simpo Two said:

True, but the OP was asking why the Spanish didn't bring back a South American germ that then wiped out 95% of Europe. Perhaps luck?

You've got to remember that journey times were a bit longer back then!

Spanish can go over riddled with lurgey (which they are immune to). Mince about and infect everyone, who then die.
Incas would have to give the bad aids to a spaniard, who would then have to get ill, get on a boat, sail for weeks then give everyone back home in spain the bad aids.

Strikes me that this is a bit of a barrier - if Carlos was dying from pox, would the captain let him on? If he struck ill mid voyage, with crappy conditions, limited healthcare etc would he end up in sailcloth and overboard?

Imo if 4 ships of incas travelled to spain, it probably would have ended differently!

[ChevronB19]

I can buy that, but even if you restrict the assumption to conquistadors who were over there, and ill ones didn’t make it back to infect the ‘old world’, did 90-95% of the conquistadors die from exposure to novel ‘New World’ diseases? Obviously the numbers would be massively lower.

[SpudLink]

ChevronB19 said:

I can buy that, but even if you restrict the assumption to conquistadors who were over there, and ill ones didn’t make it back to infect the ‘old world’, did 90-95% of the conquistadors die from exposure to novel ‘New World’ diseases? Obviously the numbers would be massively lower.

There have been several suggestions so far. The answer is probably not any single reason, but they are all factors.

[glazbagun]

Europe was connected to China, Africa & India as well as growing their own domestic plagues from centuries of living with animals in dense cities. We either died or adapted to each new disease as it appeared.

The indigenous Americans got to sample six millenia of germ warfare all in one generation. And we kept coming.

Also worth noting that tropical conditions in many parts of the Americas diseased the hell out of many a colonizer too. Jungles just suck.

[SpudLink]

I've just stumbled across a discussion of this subject on the Guardian website.

Link


Also, there is apparently evidence of climate change as a result of the deaths and population migration away from New World cities.

Link

Edited by SpudLink on Wednesday 13th March 13:15