Climate Change - The Scientific Debate

[IainT]

Badly phrased - break down maybe not the right phrase, more assuming that things might be complex enough for sun-spots to not be the only useful measure.

But, if the sun were to wake up (which LS puts reasonable doubt on happening soon) and temps were to resume an upwards trend we know full well warmism would claim this as proof that CO2 did it despite it being nothing of the sort. In fact, should the solar activity increase and temps then follow it's ratification of 'the sun did it'.

[turbobloke]

IainT said:

Badly phrased - break down maybe not the right phrase, more assuming that things might be complex enough for sun-spots to not be the only useful measure.

Too right, you're absolutely spot on. Sunspot number has been a proxy for Total Solar Irradiance in some viewpoints, and it's not bad, but there's more to solar forcing than TSI however it's measured. You'll hopefully recall one or two (hundred) posts from me across various threads in the past 11 years up, relating to solar eruptivity in terms of the Svensmark CRF-LLC-albedo and Bucha auroral oval mechanisms. Solar eruptivity is a major solar influence on weather and climate. This isn't simply a sunspot matter - take coronal holes for example.

IainT said:

In fact, should the solar activity increase and temps then follow it's ratification of 'the sun did it'.

As per my previous posts, any hint of warming for any reason will be painted as due to tax gas, including from a possible 2014 El Nino. It's all they can do, desperate times etc.

[Variomatic]

Finally!!! Compete and incontrovertible proof that Climate Change isn't happening!!!!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hot-weather-days...

Michael "There is no hurricane" Fish says it is

[turbobloke]

What a lot of carp.

[Moonhawk]

Variomatic said:

Finally!!! Compete and incontrovertible proof that Climate Change isn't happening!!!!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hot-weather-days...

Michael "There is no hurricane" Fish says it is

"The last time that the Earth was as warm as this was 120,000 years ago," he said.

Hmmm - what caused the Earth to be so warm 120,000 years ago. Was it them pesky prehistoric homosapiens driving round in their drop top sports cars?

[turbobloke]

It's well known that fish don't understand causality.

[mybrainhurts]

Variomatic said:

Finally!!! Compete and incontrovertible proof that Climate Change isn't happening!!!!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/hot-weather-days...

Michael "There is no hurricane" Fish says it is

Poor chap never learns...

Michael Fish's epitaph ------> BUGGER

[LongQ]

Science policy based on near consensus is most interesting in the sphere of medicine.

They have been agreed for years that Fat is bad - or some sorts of fat are bad but in general fat is bad. It's sort of been done to death really.

They need something new. They've done salt. Not much one can say about water. What other 'volume' constituent that people recognise and can chose to consume directly can they go for? The food equivalant of 'carbon' in its pervasiveness.

Well, is has to be sugar, right?

I seems that an apple a day, far from keeping the Doctor away, is a path to obesity, heart attacks, diabetes and all the other claimed dietary long term threats to health.

For the people who are building careers on that research, fat is fine.

I'm sure there will be a Climate Change angle along soon. Anything to keep the populace 'concerned' and distracted from reality

A wonderful thing, Science, in the post modern world.

[grumbledoak]

It is an interesting parallel involving science, consensus, and money, to be sure. And is the decades long consensus true or just very, very profitable?

[nelly1]

LongQ said:

Science policy based on near consensus is most interesting in the sphere of medicine.

They have been agreed for years that Fat is bad - or some sorts of fat are bad but in general fat is bad. It's sort of been done to death really.

They need something new. They've done salt. Not much one can say about water. What other 'volume' constituent that people recognise and can chose to consume directly can they go for? The food equivalant of 'carbon' in its pervasiveness.

Well, is has to be sugar, right?

I seems that an apple a day, far from keeping the Doctor away, is a path to obesity, heart attacks, diabetes and all the other claimed dietary long term threats to health.

For the people who are building careers on that research, fat is fine.

I'm sure there will be a Climate Change angle along soon. Anything to keep the populace 'concerned' and distracted from reality

A wonderful thing, Science, in the post modern world.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/sugar-de...

[LongQ]

grumbledoak said:

It is an interesting parallel involving science, consensus, and money, to be sure. And is the decades long consensus true or just very, very profitable?

I suspect a mix of control and profitability.

A day or so back I read an article about an Electronics company that seems to be about to revolutionise the potential for small and flexible RFID type devices - all to do with the "Internet of things".

Now it occurs to me that such technology might be adapted to create micro-billing opportunities via Smart metering techniques.

With not to much thought one might see it appearing in, say, fitness devices to that the more active members of society could provide instant data feeds to their mates about how well they are performing in the latest race, training or, perhaps, sexual romp.

Once such devices, as they surely will, are able to measure breathing and volumes of air shifted we might see the automatic billing of humans for both oxygen consumption and CO2 output pollution for, in the words of the song, Every Move You Make.

Now that could be worth billions to a number of industries and service companies so it's a fair bet that someone will have a go at it. The thought of Governments being able to tax the air we breath takes me back a nuber of years to a comedy sketch written and performed as part of a school entertainment. Bureaucratic controls at the notional 'school' became such that one needed a letter of authority before you were allowed to breath. What an absurd thought that was ... at the time.

[funkyrobot]

Climate change may unleash Smallpox, apparently:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/could-cl...

Some images may be unsafe for work and are probably not best viewed when eating your dinner.

[kiteless]

Posted not for the video, nor the whipped-puppy whining of Mann, but for this comment from "1000frolly" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06DdPb_DFo0

After initialising and parametrising hundreds of unknown factors,inserting divergent proxy data and ignoring any difficult natural forcing factors,we ran hundreds of simulations until we obtained the results we wanted–an ensemble of meaningless projected results,which we then averaged.We utilised the liberally unprincipled component method to homogenise and sensitise this to produce a new hockey stick,which gave a very robust prediction (95% probability) that we are totally screwing ALL of you

'bout right.

[ChemicalChaos]

http://ipcc-wg2.gov/AR5/images/uploads/IPCC_WG2AR5...

Usual alarmist nonsense said:

Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over
decades to millennia. The atmosphere and ocean have warmed, the amounts of snow and ice have diminished, sea level
has risen, and the concentrations of greenhouse gases have increased.

Bullst

[MiseryStreak]

ChemicalChaos said:

Bullst

The trouble is, to the majority of the population, that report is going to be seen as a done deal, and that they no longer have to harbour any doubt in their minds about anthropogenic climate change. If only they had heard of this thread, the poisonous lies of those 12,000 peer reviewed scientists could be deftly balanced by the wise utterances of a few learned car enthusiasts. It's a cruel world.

[Variomatic]

ChemicalChaos said:

Bullst

Lots of seriously dodgy logic (both circular and plain illogical) wrapped up in that report. Won't stop if being quoted unthinkingly by the mass meeja and jumped on by gubmint as reasons to tax everyone to extinction though.

Then they'll be able to point to all those people who freeze to death in the next cold winter becase they can't afford their fuel bills as casualties of climate change

[ChemicalChaos]

Variomatic said:

ChemicalChaos said:

Bullst

Lots of seriously dodgy logic (both circular and plain illogical) wrapped up in that report. Won't stop if being quoted unthinkingly by the mass meeja and jumped on by gubmint as reasons to tax everyone to extinction though.

Then they'll be able to point to all those people who freeze to death in the next cold winter becase they can't afford their fuel bills as casualties of climate change

Indeed. What points would you make to rebut that report btw? one of my alarmist friends is currently jumping up and down pointing at it and asking me for a comeback, and I want to shut him good and properly

[hairykrishna]

ChemicalChaos said:

Indeed. What points would you make to rebut that report btw? one of my alarmist friends is currently jumping up and down pointing at it and asking me for a comeback, and I want to shut him good and properly

So you know it's bullst, but you don't actually know why?

[ChemicalChaos]

hairykrishna said:

ChemicalChaos said:

Indeed. What points would you make to rebut that report btw? one of my alarmist friends is currently jumping up and down pointing at it and asking me for a comeback, and I want to shut him good and properly

So you know it's bullst, but you don't actually know why?

I can come up with the usual general arguments against it, but I was wondering if someone slightly more gen'd up than me could come up with a real zinger

[MiseryStreak]

ChemicalChaos said:

I was wondering if someone slightly more gen'd up than me could come up with a real zinger

Erm...if you put 'Intergovernmental Panel' into an anagram finder you get:

Government Ran Planet Lie

Am I doing this right?