Vacuum Bleeder Woes
Discussion
I bought one of these cheap ebay vacuum bleeders
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deluxe-Hand-Held-Brake-B...
The idea is you attach it to the bleed nipple and it draws the air out, sounds nice and simple. I've tried it on 3 different cars (clutches only) and it's not worked well on any. Maybe i'm doing somthing wrong. It's set-up as per the instructions.
I draw a vacuum and it'll hold it fine so I guess there are no leaks. When I open the bleed nipple it makes all the right noises, it draws fluid with loads of bubbles which makes me think it's working. I find the vacuum runs out quite quickly. My issue is, you can keep drawing air bubbles for as long as you want, it never seems to actually bleed anything, I can draw fluid with air bubbles for as long as I like. Is there a trick to using them? Am I doing something wrong or is it just rubbish?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deluxe-Hand-Held-Brake-B...
The idea is you attach it to the bleed nipple and it draws the air out, sounds nice and simple. I've tried it on 3 different cars (clutches only) and it's not worked well on any. Maybe i'm doing somthing wrong. It's set-up as per the instructions.
I draw a vacuum and it'll hold it fine so I guess there are no leaks. When I open the bleed nipple it makes all the right noises, it draws fluid with loads of bubbles which makes me think it's working. I find the vacuum runs out quite quickly. My issue is, you can keep drawing air bubbles for as long as you want, it never seems to actually bleed anything, I can draw fluid with air bubbles for as long as I like. Is there a trick to using them? Am I doing something wrong or is it just rubbish?
So does this thing suck the fluid out? Odd?
Bleeding clutches can be an arse because normally the master is higher than the slave, which means conventional bleeding from the top doesnt work as the air bubbles rise in the system than get trapped. Trying to suck fluid out isn't going to work well for the same reason.
The way I have managed it is to reverse bleed. You get a small new (clean!) oil can, and some rubber tube. Fill the can with brake fluid and pump the fluid in through the bleed nipple so air is forced up to the top (leaving the reservoir lid off) and out.
This pretty effective but some times messy. Also if it doesn't seem to work, leave the clutch pedal wedged down over night. Some times new seals in the cylinders take a while to flex and do there job properly.
Bleeding clutches can be an arse because normally the master is higher than the slave, which means conventional bleeding from the top doesnt work as the air bubbles rise in the system than get trapped. Trying to suck fluid out isn't going to work well for the same reason.
The way I have managed it is to reverse bleed. You get a small new (clean!) oil can, and some rubber tube. Fill the can with brake fluid and pump the fluid in through the bleed nipple so air is forced up to the top (leaving the reservoir lid off) and out.
This pretty effective but some times messy. Also if it doesn't seem to work, leave the clutch pedal wedged down over night. Some times new seals in the cylinders take a while to flex and do there job properly.
paintman said:
If you open the bleed nipple too much you will suck air in via its threads.
Never tried a vacuum bleeder but I've used a pressure bleeder (Gunson Eezi-bleed) for years & - so far - never had an issue.
This ^^^^^^^^Never tried a vacuum bleeder but I've used a pressure bleeder (Gunson Eezi-bleed) for years & - so far - never had an issue.
However I'm taking my latest car (MB) to the garage for the brakes because it's supposed to be bleed @ 2 bar which the Gunson's kit won't cope with.
I have a vacuum bleeder (works off the compressor) and can never get a solid stream of fluid, like has been said it always draws air in through the nipple threads. But why are you bleeding the system, is it to get air out (after you have repair,replaced opened the system up) or is it to replace the fluid? If its the latter then i wouldn't worry to much about not getting a bubble free flow, just shut the nipple while under vacuum when you get clean fluid through, if there is no air in the system then being under vacuum with fluid flowing out wont add any.
If its to get air out, then there is a theory that vacuum bleeding is actually more effective than pressure bleeding as under vacuum the air bubbles will grow and be more readily moved along whereas under pressure they will compress and be smaller and more stubborn. May just be marketing puff but it kind of seems sensible. The big problem is how to tell if you have got it all and the only real answer to that with a vacuum bleeder is to pull through enough fluid to be confident you must have and go by pedal feel when you think you are done.
I have never had a problem this way and the viper acr brakes will test how secure you eyeballs are in their sockets and stand up to 20 odd lap sessions on Bedford GT circuit with no problems
If its to get air out, then there is a theory that vacuum bleeding is actually more effective than pressure bleeding as under vacuum the air bubbles will grow and be more readily moved along whereas under pressure they will compress and be smaller and more stubborn. May just be marketing puff but it kind of seems sensible. The big problem is how to tell if you have got it all and the only real answer to that with a vacuum bleeder is to pull through enough fluid to be confident you must have and go by pedal feel when you think you are done.
I have never had a problem this way and the viper acr brakes will test how secure you eyeballs are in their sockets and stand up to 20 odd lap sessions on Bedford GT circuit with no problems
I did think when I did my Golf it was drawing air in through the bleed nipple threads, I removed it and wrapped it in PTFE tape. It still wasn't very effective.
This time I'm bleeding my MR2 after putting the engine back in (Toyota run the clutch line through an engine mount bracket that's difficult to remove so you just can't unbolt the slave cylinder). I guess the length of the system in a rear engined car doesn't help matters.
I have a Gunsons pressure bleeder kit. They are a nightmare to get a good seal after it's been used a few times. The reservoir cap is a press fit so I can't use it on the MR2.
What I always end up doing is connecting the pressure bleeder backwards to pump in fluid via the bleed nipple. It's a pain though, makes a huge mess. I'm frustrated that the vacuum bleeder doesn't seem to get any results
This time I'm bleeding my MR2 after putting the engine back in (Toyota run the clutch line through an engine mount bracket that's difficult to remove so you just can't unbolt the slave cylinder). I guess the length of the system in a rear engined car doesn't help matters.
I have a Gunsons pressure bleeder kit. They are a nightmare to get a good seal after it's been used a few times. The reservoir cap is a press fit so I can't use it on the MR2.
What I always end up doing is connecting the pressure bleeder backwards to pump in fluid via the bleed nipple. It's a pain though, makes a huge mess. I'm frustrated that the vacuum bleeder doesn't seem to get any results
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
I use one of these...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-104616-Fluid-Ex...
to change fluid I first use it to remove the fluid out of the resoviour.... makes changing it quicker. The I top up and use the pipe on the bleed nipples, one at a time.
The fact that you see air in the pipe is of no consequence, its just coming around the nipple threads, which are past the tapered seal, so no actual air gets in the system.
Great for clutches and brakes, puls the old fluid straight into the container. I have found these far better thean the proper thing and it gets used for all sorts of things from changing the oil on my compressor, lawn mowers, I don't use it for oil changes on the car though.
Edited to say I looked at the Ebay one, I had one and chucked it in the bin... it didn't work well at all. The bottle type I have linked to creates a reserve vacuum in the bottle, makes it easy!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-104616-Fluid-Ex...
to change fluid I first use it to remove the fluid out of the resoviour.... makes changing it quicker. The I top up and use the pipe on the bleed nipples, one at a time.
The fact that you see air in the pipe is of no consequence, its just coming around the nipple threads, which are past the tapered seal, so no actual air gets in the system.
Great for clutches and brakes, puls the old fluid straight into the container. I have found these far better thean the proper thing and it gets used for all sorts of things from changing the oil on my compressor, lawn mowers, I don't use it for oil changes on the car though.
Edited to say I looked at the Ebay one, I had one and chucked it in the bin... it didn't work well at all. The bottle type I have linked to creates a reserve vacuum in the bottle, makes it easy!
Edited by buzzer on Saturday 8th November 16:10
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
I have recently started using a Draper 'Expert' 71205 Vac Bleeder.
TBH I don't have much confidence in it but each time it does seem to do the job even though I never manage to see a tube full/bubble free operation.
The vac part of it seems pretty weak, barely enough to hold it against a finger let alone 2 bar!
TBH I don't have much confidence in it but each time it does seem to do the job even though I never manage to see a tube full/bubble free operation.
The vac part of it seems pretty weak, barely enough to hold it against a finger let alone 2 bar!
andyiley said:
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
interloper said:
The way I have managed it is to reverse bleed. You get a small new (clean!) oil can, and some rubber tube. Fill the can with brake fluid and pump the fluid in through the bleed nipple so air is forced up to the top (leaving the reservoir lid off) and out.
leave the clutch pedal wedged down over night. Some times new seals in the cylinders take a while to flex and do there job properly.
good advice and my method for a few years now.leave the clutch pedal wedged down over night. Some times new seals in the cylinders take a while to flex and do there job properly.
Holding down the pedal overnight also lets the trapped air creep back and is nigh on mandatory on b
d Renaults!Some/many concentric slaves now have one feed to the slave which has to act as feed and bleed pipe.
A s
t idea,especially when coupled with the most diabolical design,those that to bleed you have to pull the pipe out of the plastic fitting to the first clip/pump/push in to the second clip/release pedal/repeat again and again and again,could no-one come up with a better idea than that?FFS!some cars need a pressure above 2.5 bar constant before the diagnostics will even allow bleeding to begin,not that many yet but it will increase in use,as will needing diagnostics to bleed either hydraulic systems,
I bought a power bleeder(£800)and have had to use it twice in 3 years,both times on 1007`s.
I always before fitting concentric slaves do this:
Push the bearing right back as far as it will go,with out forcing it.
then immerse the inlet in clean fluid and release the bearing slowly,
Repeat,while keeping the opening under fluid until the bubbles cease.
Then fit it,it saves a lot of aggro and some you can then just connect up and one pump of the pedal settles it.
Another tip with concentric slaves,is once the box is bolted to the engine and mounting,clutch pipe first until you are satisfied the clutch is bled properly and also not leaking.
there is no point half dressing the thing only to have to take it all back off again.
Edited by shoehorn on Sunday 9th November 22:40
andyiley said:
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
any leak after the containers inlet (pressurised air only) pi55es fuid everywhere wether it be from the containers outlet or the res cap connection or cap to res seal (all are pressurised fluid), last time i did it i used a transit wheel at 50 PSi and the fluid jet from the res cap connection cleared both lanes of the road i was parked on and hit the pavment on tother side, lucky there were no vehicals parked in the way !The recomended pressure for the kit is 20 PSi !
The other downside is the res is left over full of fluid after you finish so i have a turky baister to remove some fkuid after.
Clutch slaves are the pits, transit ones can be real pains in the backside, i reverse bleed them using a large syringe, that way you are pushing the air out the way it wants to go, IE up
Edited by S0 What on Sunday 9th November 23:25
S0 What said:
andyiley said:
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
any leak after the containers inlet (pressurised air only) pi55es fuid everywhere wether it be from the containers outlet or the res cap connection or cap to res seal (all are pressurised fluid), last time i did it i used a transit wheel at 50 PSi and the fluid jet from the res cap connection cleared both lanes of the road i was parked on and hit the pavment on tother side, lucky there were no vehicals parked in the way !The recomended pressure for the kit is 20 PSi !
The other downside is the res is left over full of fluid after you finish so i have a turky baister to remove some fkuid after.
Clutch slaves are the pits, transit ones can be real pains in the backside, i reverse bleed them using a large syringe, that way you are pushing the air out the way it wants to go, IE up
Edited by S0 What on Sunday 9th November 23:25
andyiley said:
S0 What said:
andyiley said:
PositronicRay said:
andyiley said:
I know some will see them as a bit noddy, but I have used a Gunson's eazi bleed myself for well over ten years on MANY cars with good results, and as to the 2 bar thing with mb's there have been several times when I forgot to drop the spare tyre pressure first & so have bled at full pressure.
Tried this @ 2 bar (accidentally), fluid pissed out everywhere.
Surely the only bit at tyre pressure but not normally under pressure is the reservoir, and they are normally sat on a large grommet type seal.
any leak after the containers inlet (pressurised air only) pi55es fuid everywhere wether it be from the containers outlet or the res cap connection or cap to res seal (all are pressurised fluid), last time i did it i used a transit wheel at 50 PSi and the fluid jet from the res cap connection cleared both lanes of the road i was parked on and hit the pavment on tother side, lucky there were no vehicals parked in the way !The recomended pressure for the kit is 20 PSi !
The other downside is the res is left over full of fluid after you finish so i have a turky baister to remove some fkuid after.
Clutch slaves are the pits, transit ones can be real pains in the backside, i reverse bleed them using a large syringe, that way you are pushing the air out the way it wants to go, IE up
Edited by S0 What on Sunday 9th November 23:25
Yes cleaner in case of misuse but use it as intended by the manufacturer and it's no dirtyer at all (assuming you dont spill the fluid out of the turkey baister
) TBH i uallways purge the whole system when bleeding any 1 point so i use the reserve to save keep depressurising the system as no res i've found yet is large enough to hold all the fluid needed to purge/change a whole system in one go(especialy with ABS).
Escy said:
I bought one of these cheap ebay vacuum bleeders
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deluxe-Hand-Held-Brake-B...
The idea is you attach it to the bleed nipple and it draws the air out, sounds nice and simple. I've tried it on 3 different cars (clutches only) and it's not worked well on any. Maybe i'm doing somthing wrong. It's set-up as per the instructions.
I draw a vacuum and it'll hold it fine so I guess there are no leaks. When I open the bleed nipple it makes all the right noises, it draws fluid with loads of bubbles which makes me think it's working. I find the vacuum runs out quite quickly. My issue is, you can keep drawing air bubbles for as long as you want, it never seems to actually bleed anything, I can draw fluid with air bubbles for as long as I like. Is there a trick to using them? Am I doing something wrong or is it just rubbish?
I've found that you should remove the nipple completely, grease around its thread and then refit. The grease keeps the vacuum.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deluxe-Hand-Held-Brake-B...
The idea is you attach it to the bleed nipple and it draws the air out, sounds nice and simple. I've tried it on 3 different cars (clutches only) and it's not worked well on any. Maybe i'm doing somthing wrong. It's set-up as per the instructions.
I draw a vacuum and it'll hold it fine so I guess there are no leaks. When I open the bleed nipple it makes all the right noises, it draws fluid with loads of bubbles which makes me think it's working. I find the vacuum runs out quite quickly. My issue is, you can keep drawing air bubbles for as long as you want, it never seems to actually bleed anything, I can draw fluid with air bubbles for as long as I like. Is there a trick to using them? Am I doing something wrong or is it just rubbish?
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