headlight bulbs confusion. . . .LED H4 is there such a thing
Discussion
My Lupo headlights are rubbish, i have changed bulbs, not much better, fitted a HID kit, bulbs kept blowing, so now i am back to H4 bulbs. The reflectors look in good shape, the lens's are clean and scratch free, so my question is what next. . .is there such a thing as an LED H4 bulb that is safe to use and legal.
I have read stories of MOT issues, but not sure if this refers to home fit HID kits along the lines that i tried, which for the record were bright, but the beam pattern was shocking. . .
Any experts out there that can help. ?
currently even most cyclists seem to have better lights than me
I have read stories of MOT issues, but not sure if this refers to home fit HID kits along the lines that i tried, which for the record were bright, but the beam pattern was shocking. . .
Any experts out there that can help. ?
currently even most cyclists seem to have better lights than me
There are LED H4s. I had one on my motorbike as a "daytime" headlight. The problem is that the reflector behind the bulb is designed to gather the light from a single intense spot (the filament) and focus it to a point which can be seen and measured. When the bike was MOTd no focus point could be discerned so it failed. Just go for "uprated" H4s like from Osram or Philips which put out more light for the same wattage (55). They are not too expensive on ebay, and certainly cheaper than a HID kit.
i`m blaming you and not the wine, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-Power-H4-24W-CREE-COB...
should be here in a bit, i will update when it arrives
Ray
should be here in a bit, i will update when it arrives
Ray
DO NOT FIT THESE.
I work in light,
The reflector (or headlight bowl) is designed for a particular lamp source, is the lamp source size, position, and photo metric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.
Whilst the HIDs maybe brighter on the retrofits, the reflectors and lenses are not designed for these, so the cut off angles are not there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights have been around for a while, are well documented, and developed for a reason.
The LED retrofits will be even worse, as they relly upon multi point source emission.
Don't be selfish and fit these just so that YOU can see better, you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking at the sun. Please don't do it.
it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff (which is all an MOT checks for) In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.
And to be honest These company's are so stupid as to offer these without doing proper investigation (polar curve and photometric tests........or a simple MOT) They even state on the website "very effective at moving traffic on the nurbergring"......... Well the reason for that is that you are glaring all the drivers in front, in their rear view mirrors, blinding them,so they would rather pull over than crash because of their stupid headlight conversion.
From an Car lover who works with light........don't.
If you want to improve things.......... here's my advice;
Make sure the reflectors are not flaking, pitted or rusted, you want to convert as much of the lamp lumens, to light output from the headlight.
Ignore lamp wattages, these are a measurement of power not light output (lumens or in the USA candelas). An aftermarket Chinese import 100watt rally grade light bulb, may have less lumens than a high quality lamp from a known manufacturer....... Like say Osram, Bosch, Philips, ring, hella (no I don't work for any of these).
Glass has a higher light output ratio than plastic, so a glass fronted headlight will covert more light than say a polycarbonate one.......... However... Modern reflector and lens designs and technology are way better than what was available when our 60's / 70's cars were new, so a modern polycarbonate headlight will be better than an origenal.
A conversion to H4 compatible headlight units would be a good idea, as there is more availability of very high quality and higher than standard output lamps available.
Bear in mind that the really high output H4 type lamps (eg osram night breaker), have a much shorter lifetime than standard h4 lamps, but this isn't a problem for me on classic cars, as they are not used as much as daily drivers. (The plus version of the above Osram lamp has gold contacts, which actually extends. He life).
Make sure the lamps are getting as much voltage as possible, install a relay to bypass all the headlight power from going through the column switch. And have a decent battery / alternator system.....look for 12.5+ volts on the lamp terminals.
You could change to higher colour temperature lamps 3000k plus, as the standard H1 lamps are very warm, this affects our photopic and scotopic vision, we see more detail and can react better, and some think need less light to see when using our colour cones, rather than our black and white rods (which operate at night, but have less resolution). However there is no point going above 4000kelvin, as lights above this colour temp range are purely for aesthetic, or to make people think you have HIDS.
Don't wear sunglasses at night.
Read the below;
Department for Transport
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places an HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
UK Police Official Line
Yes these are illegal. The fine for having such modifications to a vehicle is up to £2500. However we do have some head room on this and for example some time this will be resolved as a fixed penalty if it is a first offence.
Please pull them off the market, unless you can sell them as a complete kit with lenses etc..... that comply to points 1/2/3 above.
Ps: I upgraded the lamps in the rear of my fuel and water temp gauges to LED versions, from the best manufacturer I know (called in a freebie favour), however they have made no difference (the poloar curve was all wrong.........too much light projected forwards, not sideways like the old filament lamp). The problems lies with how the light is distributed within the gauge.....so I need to ake them gauge apart and do more investigation.
I work in light,
The reflector (or headlight bowl) is designed for a particular lamp source, is the lamp source size, position, and photo metric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.
Whilst the HIDs maybe brighter on the retrofits, the reflectors and lenses are not designed for these, so the cut off angles are not there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights have been around for a while, are well documented, and developed for a reason.
The LED retrofits will be even worse, as they relly upon multi point source emission.
Don't be selfish and fit these just so that YOU can see better, you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking at the sun. Please don't do it.
it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff (which is all an MOT checks for) In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.
And to be honest These company's are so stupid as to offer these without doing proper investigation (polar curve and photometric tests........or a simple MOT) They even state on the website "very effective at moving traffic on the nurbergring"......... Well the reason for that is that you are glaring all the drivers in front, in their rear view mirrors, blinding them,so they would rather pull over than crash because of their stupid headlight conversion.
From an Car lover who works with light........don't.
If you want to improve things.......... here's my advice;
Make sure the reflectors are not flaking, pitted or rusted, you want to convert as much of the lamp lumens, to light output from the headlight.
Ignore lamp wattages, these are a measurement of power not light output (lumens or in the USA candelas). An aftermarket Chinese import 100watt rally grade light bulb, may have less lumens than a high quality lamp from a known manufacturer....... Like say Osram, Bosch, Philips, ring, hella (no I don't work for any of these).
Glass has a higher light output ratio than plastic, so a glass fronted headlight will covert more light than say a polycarbonate one.......... However... Modern reflector and lens designs and technology are way better than what was available when our 60's / 70's cars were new, so a modern polycarbonate headlight will be better than an origenal.
A conversion to H4 compatible headlight units would be a good idea, as there is more availability of very high quality and higher than standard output lamps available.
Bear in mind that the really high output H4 type lamps (eg osram night breaker), have a much shorter lifetime than standard h4 lamps, but this isn't a problem for me on classic cars, as they are not used as much as daily drivers. (The plus version of the above Osram lamp has gold contacts, which actually extends. He life).
Make sure the lamps are getting as much voltage as possible, install a relay to bypass all the headlight power from going through the column switch. And have a decent battery / alternator system.....look for 12.5+ volts on the lamp terminals.
You could change to higher colour temperature lamps 3000k plus, as the standard H1 lamps are very warm, this affects our photopic and scotopic vision, we see more detail and can react better, and some think need less light to see when using our colour cones, rather than our black and white rods (which operate at night, but have less resolution). However there is no point going above 4000kelvin, as lights above this colour temp range are purely for aesthetic, or to make people think you have HIDS.
Don't wear sunglasses at night.
Read the below;
Department for Transport
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places an HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
UK Police Official Line
Yes these are illegal. The fine for having such modifications to a vehicle is up to £2500. However we do have some head room on this and for example some time this will be resolved as a fixed penalty if it is a first offence.
Please pull them off the market, unless you can sell them as a complete kit with lenses etc..... that comply to points 1/2/3 above.
Ps: I upgraded the lamps in the rear of my fuel and water temp gauges to LED versions, from the best manufacturer I know (called in a freebie favour), however they have made no difference (the poloar curve was all wrong.........too much light projected forwards, not sideways like the old filament lamp). The problems lies with how the light is distributed within the gauge.....so I need to ake them gauge apart and do more investigation.
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 30th November 22:14
Words of wisdom from Jamie. A couple of comments:-
1.
Re. maxing the voltage to the bulbs. On a car with twin 5.75” Cibie lights with good bulbs, I took a fat cable from the battery to a couple of relays mounted at the lights and used the existing cables to switch the relays. The result was way better than a HID conversion also tried, IMHO.
2.
Re. Headlight cleaning and self-levelling. I found this in a VOSA note to MOT stations, VOSA/PSP/2167C/MARCH11 :-
“It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.”
This will probably also apply to LEDs and MOT is not IVA, so maybe get IVA done then install the better lights if going for e-marked LEDs, (JW Speaker, Nolden, Trucklite). Anyone found any e-marked retrofit HIDs?
1.
Re. maxing the voltage to the bulbs. On a car with twin 5.75” Cibie lights with good bulbs, I took a fat cable from the battery to a couple of relays mounted at the lights and used the existing cables to switch the relays. The result was way better than a HID conversion also tried, IMHO.
2.
Re. Headlight cleaning and self-levelling. I found this in a VOSA note to MOT stations, VOSA/PSP/2167C/MARCH11 :-
“It is also worthy of note that a few high performance vehicles fitted with HID headlamps that have barely any luggage space and stiff suspension do not require a self-levelling system.”
This will probably also apply to LEDs and MOT is not IVA, so maybe get IVA done then install the better lights if going for e-marked LEDs, (JW Speaker, Nolden, Trucklite). Anyone found any e-marked retrofit HIDs?
That is the best and most illuminating ( ha) piece of information I have read regarding upgrading headlights , I have a Berlingo as a workhorse , and would love to upgrade the headlights .
Tried "Nightbreakers " and they lasted less than a year , also other "high output " bulbs , now back to standard bulbs , and driving within the limit of these .Given up !
Tried "Nightbreakers " and they lasted less than a year , also other "high output " bulbs , now back to standard bulbs , and driving within the limit of these .Given up !
hi Jamie, thanks for the post and all the detail.
I was fitting an alternator conversion to the MG Midget i have and wondered about voltage to the lamp itself. Like you and your classic, i rarely use mine for long periods at night, so the headlight issue given the speed i travel isn't really so much of a concern. The Lupo is the daily driver, and its my view to leave it alone given the advice given particularly from you. What you say about dazzling is unfortunately rife, virtually every oncoming car seems to have their lights to high by just enough, and ones following are occasionally an issue but easier to deal with.
For now i will upgrade to better quality H4 bulbs and in the meantime get someone who understands voltage and relays etc to check and alter if required the set up i have to ensure proper voltage at the bulb.
In the meantime, i will go for an eye test too !
thanks as before. Peter
I was fitting an alternator conversion to the MG Midget i have and wondered about voltage to the lamp itself. Like you and your classic, i rarely use mine for long periods at night, so the headlight issue given the speed i travel isn't really so much of a concern. The Lupo is the daily driver, and its my view to leave it alone given the advice given particularly from you. What you say about dazzling is unfortunately rife, virtually every oncoming car seems to have their lights to high by just enough, and ones following are occasionally an issue but easier to deal with.
For now i will upgrade to better quality H4 bulbs and in the meantime get someone who understands voltage and relays etc to check and alter if required the set up i have to ensure proper voltage at the bulb.
In the meantime, i will go for an eye test too !
thanks as before. Peter
Fitted it today, the only problem so far is that the heatsink on the back gets in the way of the spring clip on my bike, as its been daylight on the way to work I will have to report later or tomorrow.
so far the plus points are - instant light no warm up required, looking from in front of the bike it looks like a nice bright beam with no odd bits or flare( so far-tonight will tell)
Ray
so far the plus points are - instant light no warm up required, looking from in front of the bike it looks like a nice bright beam with no odd bits or flare( so far-tonight will tell)
Ray
Well rode home last night and Jamie may be right, they are very bright during the day when I looked at them from the front, but last night on the ride home, i seemed to have less light than a normal h4 halogen, also i had less light directley infront of the bike unless I put high beam on, almost like the bulb was upside down( only fits one way)
I will give it another go tonight and see if its any better
Ray(cursing Jamie for being right)
I will give it another go tonight and see if its any better
Ray(cursing Jamie for being right)
Jamie's post is top notch. A great external reference is
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/
... he and Jamie most definitely concur.
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/
... he and Jamie most definitely concur.
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