My pinto is too hot!

My pinto is too hot!

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Discussion

Bigfishcampers

Original Poster:

3 posts

92 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
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Hi everyone-

This is my first Pinto (first car I have been immersed in actually) and I have learnt ALOT so far in trying to get the thing running right, but I just cant figure out how to figure out why it is running too hot!

I think perhaps it is running too rich, but I have pulled the carb apart (weber 32/36 DGAV 3D3) and given it all a damn good clean, I checked the jets and they are correct for the engine according haynes. After fiddling with the tuning for ages I realised the idle adjust screw was loose in the casing and was without spring or O-ring. I thought perhaps that this may cause a vacuum leak thus sucking in too much fuel and making the engine run too hot, but I was advised that it would do the opposite and make it run a little richer. I have a replacement on the way anyway.

If I pull the plugs out they are coked up and covered in fuel. The exhaust spits out a combo of soot and water... thought that was oil at first... phew!

The timing is correct and all of the leads fire nicely.

I just installed an accuspark electronic ignition to the ford diz. It works just fine and get a spark from the main ht lead if I hold it to the casing. I checked the coils secondary windings with a multimeter set to 20ohms and it came up 05.08ish which I believe means the coil is on its way out? I read the minimum should be more like 11?


I was wondering if the coil wasn't generating enough of a spark then maybe the engine could be sucking in more fuel than it can generally burn off? and so when it does ignite its a larger bang perhaps?

I can get it going if I hook up some jump leads and really turn it over whilst squirting a little easy start into the intake, but again it will live for a second and then die once again.

I've been turning the diz bit by bit and starting it to see if it is a timing issue, but this has borne no fruits and now I am a little stuck. I read the electronic ignition can flip the timing 180 degrees... is there a way to check that?

I know there are so many questions, but I need to fill the gaps between the stuff I cant seem to find on the internet so I'm asking straight up. Any tips on tuning these carbs would be awesome too.......

Thankyou so much in advance!


FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
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First question, what do you mean by running too hot?

Have you any numbers on temperature or is it just a gauge reading a bit warm.

What temp thermostat?
What temp does the fan cut in?
What's it installed in?

I used to have a Pinto engined Group 1 rally car, and the engine on that always ran hot. In fact we had two electric fans installed and a few miles before a stage start we would turn both fans on continuous to get the engine as cool as possible and theoretically obtain more power. By the end of a long 20 mile stage, despite fans running flat out as well as high speeds, the engine would be gently fizzing. So in short I'm saying Pintos do tend to run hot.

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
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Is it a ford pinto car or a ford pinto engine???

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
quotequote all
Is it a ford pinto car or a ford pinto engine???

Bertrum

466 posts

222 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
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Ok so....

Too much fuel (rich) will make it run cool not hot. too little fuel (Lean running) will make it run hot. Yours is doing the former based on the plugs etc.

If it is getting hot, over 100deg, I would change the water for a more appropriate antifreeze coolant. Give it a coolant flush, check for air locks and check your system is pressurising (assuming it is pressurised)

I would then check the fan operation and that the air has somewhere to go bonnet vents etc. You can upgrade the rad which will help a lot as the old ones are pants.

Then I would deal with your running issue and vac leak. Fix the vac leak, then balance the carb(if you have multiple) and replace the jets even if they are the correct size. Set the idle at a reasonable amount. (the water pump is driven off the crank so too low will cause it to be hot too)

If it won't start and run it is probably that it is waay too rich, or the idle too low, will it run on an open throttle and die at idle??











Edited by Bertrum on Wednesday 27th July 14:04

PaulKemp

979 posts

144 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
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So much to check but first is the coil the right one for the Accuspark?
Is the timing correct, check it.
Is the fan kicking in at the right temp?
I run several Pinto engines and always fit an earlier opening thermostat 82 degrees Burton performance or eBay the standard is 88, you can mod a mini one that opens at 72 degrees

S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
quotequote all
Pintos run fixed fans not elec (unless an aftermarket onehas been fitted ?)
If it's in a later than 80 ish vehical it will have a viscouse fan, check that locks up when hot.
Does it boil over ? if not are you sure you have the correct sender for the vehical? there are 3 or 4 differant colour codes to the senders and they need to be correct for the vehical or the gauge will read too hot/cold when it's fine.
Forget the carb for the mo that's not making it run hot unless is really weak and it's not according to your plugs.
Check the timing, over advanced will make it run hot.
Check the rad is warm/hot all over when the engine is up to temp, if there are cool spots you need a new rad or a flush (flushing rarely works and if it does it usually makes the rad leak but worth a try for the price of a few bottles of cheap cola).
Check the operation of the thermostat (remove place in water in a pan and heat it and check it opens).
Not sure if we'll ever hear back from the OP it's the holidays after all/new poster, call me jaded but it happens type

powerstroke

10,283 posts

159 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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S0 What said:
Pintos run fixed fans not elec (unless an aftermarket onehas been fitted ?)
If it's in a later than 80 ish vehical it will have a viscouse fan, check that locks up when hot.
Does it boil over ? if not are you sure you have the correct sender for the vehical? there are 3 or 4 differant colour codes to the senders and they need to be correct for the vehical or the gauge will read too hot/cold when it's fine.
Forget the carb for the mo that's not making it run hot unless is really weak and it's not according to your plugs.
Check the timing, over advanced will make it run hot.
Check the rad is warm/hot all over when the engine is up to temp, if there are cool spots you need a new rad or a flush (flushing rarely works and if it does it usually makes the rad leak but worth a try for the price of a few bottles of cheap cola).
Check the operation of the thermostat (remove place in water in a pan and heat it and check it opens).
Not sure if we'll ever hear back from the OP it's the holidays after all/new poster, call me jaded but it happens type
Yes, I did try to ask if it was the car or the engine , friend of mine has some one has a stout 351 in it and runs a high 10 sec quarter mile ,
the pinto engine was fitted to a lot of euro fords up to the late 90s and is very popular choice for race and rally cars along with kit cars ....

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
Yes, I did try to ask if it was the car or the engine , friend of mine has some one has a stout 351 in it and runs a high 10 sec quarter mile ,
the pinto engine was fitted to a lot of euro fords up to the late 90s and is very popular choice for race and rally cars along with kit cars ....
Yep, must admit I assumed it was a pinto engine installed in something, either as OEM, or in a conversion, that's as opposed to an actual Ford Pinto vehicle. Tbh I'd have been really happy to use something other than the Pinto engine in the rally car but the RS2000 was built with it and thus homologated.

Bigfishcampers

Original Poster:

3 posts

92 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
Sorry for the delay! You know when you learn that one thing that opens the floodgates of understanding and suddenly you feel like a mad genius running around the workshop grabbing tools and speaking in tongues? Well that was me all of yesterday, so I hadn't time to check here unfortunately.

So my epiphanies sort of snowballed yesterday... The big clunk was the starter motor trying to turn the engine but failing to as something was stuck inside somewhere, I reckon whilst messing with the diz I put the timing far too far out and it seized somehow. After trawling the internet for hours trying to figure out how I had wired the ignition wrong and somehow blown up the starter motor, someone mentioned in a video on a completely unrelated note to turn the thing over by hand, which I did, and it was fine, praise be to youtube.

So then after checking I definately had a spark I went into town and bought a new coil and ballast, this seemed to do the trick. This coil was kicking out nearer to 09.00 ohms and now it starts everytime.

I may have fixed and improved the ignition and accurately set the timing (10btdc was the recommended on the internet) but the original heat problem still persists. The transportation protection plug off of a leisure battery made the perfect plug for the tunnel in which the mixture screw sits, so no more vaccum leak, however I still have a maintenance kit for the carb coming anyway. That doesn't include jets Bertrum, but I will order some today if I can.

I will check the rad today S0 What, it has one very puny aftermarket fan aimed at the exhausts, I really don't think its doing very much. I havn't checked the thermostat so I could do that today.

FiF and powerstroke. The pinto is installed into a 1962 Bedford Romany Dormobile. I bought it as a non runner, we intend to rent it out as a camper... at some point. I havn't got a temp gauge or a temp gun so I couldn't say exactly how hot it is getting, but its definately running hotter than it should, the plugs are roasting, black and wet when you pull them out and I saw a couple of embers fall about the place... not sure where they came from though.

I will definately check the cooling systems today, every step is getting me closer, I m just a little worried that hot, black and wet plugs could be something a little more sinister within the casing somewhere?

Thanks for the replies all, here is a picture


FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
To me, black and wet plugs means that the plugs might not be getting up to their optimum operating temperature and thus able to burn off deposits. This could be because it's the wrong plugs.

Also it could be indication of head gasket problems, poor oil control, possibly rings or valves, or of course an incredibly rich mixture.

Can I ask again though, specifically why do you think it's running excessively hot? Boiling? Chucking coolant out?

S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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Excuse my lack of trust, summer holidays can throw up so many youngsters trying to wind peeps up with question that go no where i tend to be mistrusting this time of year of new posters beer

Ok so your real and have a dam fine and interesting ride, sweet cool

Ok when you say it overheats are we talking when driving or just stationary ?
driving it could just be a poorly designed cooling setup, the pinto was never intended for a comma after all wink if it's when stationary (IE in the workshop) i'd be looking into the pump or possably a plumbing error, you can remove the stat to test but dont leave it out, once working correctly the stat slows the flow around the engine and actually helps heat transfer from the head, too much flow and the head gets hotter as the coolant isn't in it long enough to work 100% efficiently.
Are you running a rad with cap or header tank set up (cooling layout changed over the years from the cortina to sierra and transit and they both have differing aspects to working fully, if you have the later header tank set up with the 2nd (small bore) pipe coming from the stat housing to the header make sure that small bore pipe is spitting coolant into the header tank, if it blocks the coolant curculation stalls and it will overheat.
What dash sender does it use ? plugs will get hot they are right in the firing line after all lol, also check there are suficiant earths, there is the main one and a smaller one to the head, a bad earth will make the sender incorrect (just trying to make sure you actually have a heat issue and not a gauge one), been caught out by them way too often to let it pass without double checking, the senders you buy nowdays are basicly crap, last one i fitted to a pinto (a month ago) i had to try 4 before i got one that worked propperly ! cheap chinease cr@p in a lucas box !

sorry for all the question but unless i know what you have i could be here all day guessing the causes, pintos as a rule dont tend to run too hot so there is an issue, personly i'd get a laser temp gun on it and see what it's actually doing first temp wise and if it's localised let us know how you get on wink

Bigfishcampers

Original Poster:

3 posts

92 months

Friday 29th July 2016
quotequote all

Hi FiF and S0 What,

The plugs are accuspark AF7C, I have no idea whether these are right or wrong, any suggestions as to some better plugs? I'll get a picture in a the end. Its not boiling over or spitting or any of the like, I can just tell from sitting next to it that it is.

I had a cosy with the rad and the thing is basically cold all over with the exception of a couple warmish spots, i'm looking into buying a new one. On the side with the filler cap there is a small moulded plastic tube coming off of it that look as though it should have a pipe on it, unsure if it is just some kind of pressure... um hole? I have no idea what it is, but it looks important, I'll get a pic of that too!

How can I check the earths? and i'm so sorry but what on earth is a sender?

After having a play with it today I have come to the conclusion that the radiator is most definately not doing its job and that is most surely contributing to the heat, but the black plugs... I was watching the auto choke today and it seemed to be letting far too much air through when I put my foot on the gas, when I play with the butterflies I can get it to run alot smoother.

Alternator is also near the end of its life I think!

Here are some pics



S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
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Sounds like you have the early Mk3/4 cortina set up with a rad cap and overflow tube, later (Mk5 cortina and capri) had a differant cap and an expansion tank that allowed coolant out when hot and back in when cold and the even later sierra type had a fully sealed system with a header tank (no cap on the rad), if the rad is cool flush it/change it, remove and fill/soak in cheap cola, i doubt it will fully clear it out but i does work, done many a heater rad that way.
Those plugs are rich not weak so there deffo not too much air flowing in! the autochoke flaps are sposed to open when you rev the engine so not an issue, IME it's best to tackle one thing at a time, get the engine cooling then mess with the carb as when you sort the heat issue the engine will burn the mixture differantly, lack of flow could meen the choke stays on making the car run rich, sort the flow the car "may" sort itself ? check the inlet and outlet from the heater rad are at similar temps, if the heater rad is blocked flow through the autochoke will be poor, on the pinto the water flow direction is head, inlet manifold, choke, heater rad, then back to the water pump via the small bore hose, all parts of the hoses should be v similar in temp but slightly cooler after the heater rad (especialy if the heater fan is on).
Keep at it, they really are one of the simplist engine to work on but if your used to modern engines they can seem a bit confusing and over simple (IE it's easy to overthink an issue) smile

FiF

43,965 posts

250 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
Tend to agree with the above, sort out the cooling, if the rad is cold apart from oddbits sounds like it needs a flush and if that doesn't sort it then possibly replace.

Have you had the thermostats out? It should have a mark saying what temperature it's supposed to open at, stick it in a pan of cold water, heat it up on the job and check what temperature it opens. It should be fully open before the water boils regardless.

Plugs showing very rich and combustion not up to proper temperature imo.

A sender is basically a thermocouple screwed into the block or head, forget where it is exactly now tbh.



That's what one looks like, the thermocouple is in the brass cylinder, the large thread screws into the block, say, and a cable attaches to the small thread and connects to the dash gauge.