New battery - but stil slow crank speed?
Discussion
Morning all
I have a 2002 focus tdci
Had poor cold starting all winter (below say 4 degrees).
Takess 3 or 4 cranks to catch, but a decent crank speed (by ear, not actually tested). Never got round to diagnosing the poor start fully, but glow plugs are getting 12v (too wet/ too busy unfortunately, and apart from copious blue smoke it always got going)
Weather has now warmed up a bit, and the car was starting first go.
Until Thursday last week, when wife reported it wouldn't start at her work. Tried to jump from my car..nope. incredibly slow starter turnover speed, just not catching.
New Lion battery from ecp on friday. Charged the battery for a couple of hours before putting on in her car park...it only "just" started. Ie still very slow starter motor speed.
Yesterday (sat) wouldn't start. Charged it again to 12.5 ish volts. Terminals are on tight, and clean.
Today, only "just" started again.
Today I also had a multimeter on the battery whilst the wife started it...12.5v at rest, when cranking this dropped to about 7 volts under load (?)
Voltage when running is 14.5v, so am pretty sure it's not the charging system (alternator and belt new 2 years ago)
So in my head I'm trying to run through the options, and would appreciate help with this.
I) new battery is defective...unlikely, but given lockdown it might have become fully flat on the shelf? I know you get some voltage drop under load, but nearly half?
2) parasitic drain overnight? But would this rob the battery of cranking power? It's voltage looked ok.
3) some resistance or voltage loss between battery and starter or starter and earth sapping the battery's power? I took the starter off a couple of weeks ago, and all the collections are tight and clean when I put it back though.
4) the starter might itself be knackered? This is probably my next candidate to swap, and will be thick end of £100
5) there's obviously an underlying starting fault, but this is a new development which I don't like at all, as the car needs to be used daily for work.
Car is generally ok, fault free mot recently so I'm reluctant to give up on it just yet.
The irony is my other car e61 BMW constantly bongs at me about battery discharge, so I don't think my wife using that for work is going to be a long term strategy.
As always, any help is appreciated.
Ian
I have a 2002 focus tdci
Had poor cold starting all winter (below say 4 degrees).
Takess 3 or 4 cranks to catch, but a decent crank speed (by ear, not actually tested). Never got round to diagnosing the poor start fully, but glow plugs are getting 12v (too wet/ too busy unfortunately, and apart from copious blue smoke it always got going)
Weather has now warmed up a bit, and the car was starting first go.
Until Thursday last week, when wife reported it wouldn't start at her work. Tried to jump from my car..nope. incredibly slow starter turnover speed, just not catching.
New Lion battery from ecp on friday. Charged the battery for a couple of hours before putting on in her car park...it only "just" started. Ie still very slow starter motor speed.
Yesterday (sat) wouldn't start. Charged it again to 12.5 ish volts. Terminals are on tight, and clean.
Today, only "just" started again.
Today I also had a multimeter on the battery whilst the wife started it...12.5v at rest, when cranking this dropped to about 7 volts under load (?)
Voltage when running is 14.5v, so am pretty sure it's not the charging system (alternator and belt new 2 years ago)
So in my head I'm trying to run through the options, and would appreciate help with this.
I) new battery is defective...unlikely, but given lockdown it might have become fully flat on the shelf? I know you get some voltage drop under load, but nearly half?
2) parasitic drain overnight? But would this rob the battery of cranking power? It's voltage looked ok.
3) some resistance or voltage loss between battery and starter or starter and earth sapping the battery's power? I took the starter off a couple of weeks ago, and all the collections are tight and clean when I put it back though.
4) the starter might itself be knackered? This is probably my next candidate to swap, and will be thick end of £100
5) there's obviously an underlying starting fault, but this is a new development which I don't like at all, as the car needs to be used daily for work.
Car is generally ok, fault free mot recently so I'm reluctant to give up on it just yet.
The irony is my other car e61 BMW constantly bongs at me about battery discharge, so I don't think my wife using that for work is going to be a long term strategy.
As always, any help is appreciated.
Ian
Cold said:
Agreed. Easiest one to eliminate too. Run a single jump lead from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see how it cranks.
If the cables are bad, you wouldn't be seeing 7v during charging. This is implying a very very heavy current draw. Is there something that's possibly causing a very heavy current draw when the starter motor is engaged. Mmmmm, maybe, but it's going to be a partial short in the starter motor. Wifes Twingo needed a battery.
Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
mickyh7 said:
Wifes Twingo needed a battery.
Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
They can't all be bad, or no one would stock them. I had one for several years with zero problems.Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
Well Lion batteries are absolute garbage, I think they are ECP's own brand but avoid, avoid, avoid!!!
Try the jump lead trick between the engine block and the chassis to eliminate a bad earth strap cos it's quick and simple.
But ultimately I think your next obvious step it to replace the starter motor with a new one, preferably something that isn't the cheapest crap on the market.
Try the jump lead trick between the engine block and the chassis to eliminate a bad earth strap cos it's quick and simple.
But ultimately I think your next obvious step it to replace the starter motor with a new one, preferably something that isn't the cheapest crap on the market.
catman said:
mickyh7 said:
Wifes Twingo needed a battery.
Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
They can't all be bad, or no one would stock them. I had one for several years with zero problems.Got a Lion from CP4L
Flat within 3 days.
Took it back to EP within a week.
Absolutely rubbish.
Paid an extra £30ish to swop for a Bosch.
Not one problem since.
I don't know why anyone stocks Lion anymore.
They all seem to be warranty refunds/exchanges according to the staff that deal with them.
When I took the second one back the chap behind the counter cheerfully told me they reckoned to get around 1/3 of them back during the warranty period.
I'm trade & I think he thought it was for a customer's car.
I'm probably too invested in this for some strange reason, but can someone explain why putting fresh wires to the starter motor would be any use whatsoever?
The battery voltage, on cranking is going to 7v. 7v chaps.
That means the battery is suppling far more current than it can possibly deliver.
So the 2 options as I see it, are the starter is taking more current than normal, or the battery is delivery less current than normal. Neither of these involves doubt on the cables.
So we could resolve this by measuring current - but I'm guessing this is not an option. Or we could test the battery, again, I'm assuming not an option.
In the absence of that, what do we think is most likely? The starter motor is tits up, or that 2 batteries, (1 new), is bad to the point of showing 2 consecutive and identical faults?
Not being a gambler, even I know which one to pick.
Or am I completely misunderstanding the situation?
The battery voltage, on cranking is going to 7v. 7v chaps.
That means the battery is suppling far more current than it can possibly deliver.
So the 2 options as I see it, are the starter is taking more current than normal, or the battery is delivery less current than normal. Neither of these involves doubt on the cables.
So we could resolve this by measuring current - but I'm guessing this is not an option. Or we could test the battery, again, I'm assuming not an option.
In the absence of that, what do we think is most likely? The starter motor is tits up, or that 2 batteries, (1 new), is bad to the point of showing 2 consecutive and identical faults?
Not being a gambler, even I know which one to pick.
Or am I completely misunderstanding the situation?
bearman68 said:
I'm probably too invested in this for some strange reason, but can someone explain why putting fresh wires to the starter motor would be any use whatsoever?
Checking there is a decent earth connection between the engine and chassis is a 10 second job with a jump lead and costs absolutely nothing. Why wouldn't you cover the basics before shelling out on a new starter motor?Matt_E_Mulsion said:
Checking there is a decent earth connection between the engine and chassis is a 10 second job with a jump lead and costs absolutely nothing. Why wouldn't you cover the basics before shelling out on a new starter motor?
Checking tyre pressure is also quick and easy, and just as useful. 
Matt_E_Mulsion said:
bearman68 said:
I'm probably too invested in this for some strange reason, but can someone explain why putting fresh wires to the starter motor would be any use whatsoever?
Checking there is a decent earth connection between the engine and chassis is a 10 second job with a jump lead and costs absolutely nothing. Why wouldn't you cover the basics before shelling out on a new starter motor?The terminals on the battery may look ok but what about the live connecting to the starter and what about the earth attached to the gearbox or chassis end?
It may also be worth checking your alternator is working as well. When the engine is running out a multimeter across the terminals, if it's not 14+volts then that will also be an issue.
aka_kerrly said:
Absolutely.
The terminals on the battery may look ok but what about the live connecting to the starter and what about the earth attached to the gearbox or chassis end?
.
I not judging the cabling and connectors or anything else on appearance. I'm basing it on the fact the battery dropped to 7v when the engine was cranked. This means the cables are OK, because it's the current draw that's causing the battery voltage to drop. If the battery voltage had stayed at, Oh, I dunno, say 11.8v, there would be a good case for augmenting the cables. The terminals on the battery may look ok but what about the live connecting to the starter and what about the earth attached to the gearbox or chassis end?
.
Go ahead, and waste a bit of time, it's not a huge problem, but it's not going to effect the cranking speed.
The next stage is to check the battery is OK, or to measure current.
Note that this is not, change a part because we can't think of anything else to do. Left to my own devices, I would measure current draw. But I'd be surprised if it wasn't a starter motor that has partially shorted the main windings.
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