how safe are campervan conversions (for kids in rear esp)?
Discussion
Hi, I'm new here and have searched elsewhere on the web for this info but generally failed. My partner and I are planning on getting a campervan, which will need to transport and sleep us plus our 3 young kids. I'm somewhat obsessed with safety, especially for the kids in the back, which basically means we will need to stretch our budget to the most modern vehicle possible, and get our own bespoke conversion done, so we can make sure the seats are properly installed (and ideally crash tested). I've managed to find some info on seats, but nothing on the other adaptations necessary to make a camper. For example, how does putting a pop top into a panel van (or even MPV) effect its integrity and safety in a crash? Ditto putting windows into a panel van; does that make the structure less robust? (Would we be better off getting a combi base vehicle?) I also worry about all that ply that is put in Campervans to line them. How does that effect the impact on rear passengers in a crash?
You get the picture; I'm basically neutrotic about this. Does any one have any info on these queries? Also, the likelihood we will need to get our own conversion done (costing I guess around £8k) means we will want the base vehicle to last a VERY long time. My partner says that makes VW (T5 probs) the only real option. And diesel. Any other views? And should we be anticipating a massive new tax on diesel vehicles? We live in London so the low emission zone is an issue (rules out a pre 2002 vehicle, although I think the need for it to last a long time dones too). Many thanks in advance for any advice
You get the picture; I'm basically neutrotic about this. Does any one have any info on these queries? Also, the likelihood we will need to get our own conversion done (costing I guess around £8k) means we will want the base vehicle to last a VERY long time. My partner says that makes VW (T5 probs) the only real option. And diesel. Any other views? And should we be anticipating a massive new tax on diesel vehicles? We live in London so the low emission zone is an issue (rules out a pre 2002 vehicle, although I think the need for it to last a long time dones too). Many thanks in advance for any advice
Can you find the budget for a VW factory-built California, either T5 or T4? They don't depreciate, and they're far safer all round. Proper factory tested components, electrics, heater, externally-vented gas locker, real seats, proper glass... everything is factory, and thus factory standard. You'd lose very little (or no) money running a genuine California for a few years, and they're far better laid out and thought out that most conversions, certainly anything you could achieve for £8k.
If you spend £8k doing a conversion, you'll never see that £8k again, because used conversions done by other people are worthless.
Genuine Californias have to be one of the slowest depreciating vehicles around. What's your budget for the base van? Does adding £8k to the van budget get you into California money?
EDIT: Actually, forget it. I don't think a T5 is big enough for 2 adults and 3 kids. They're not exactly roomy for 2 adults alone. Consider a big white box motorhome instead.
If you spend £8k doing a conversion, you'll never see that £8k again, because used conversions done by other people are worthless.
Genuine Californias have to be one of the slowest depreciating vehicles around. What's your budget for the base van? Does adding £8k to the van budget get you into California money?
EDIT: Actually, forget it. I don't think a T5 is big enough for 2 adults and 3 kids. They're not exactly roomy for 2 adults alone. Consider a big white box motorhome instead.
Edited by TartanPaint on Thursday 23 February 16:36
Thanks for the response. Our budget is probably max of £20k, so thinking about £10k for the base, which would get us a 2012/13 low mileage (under 70k) t5. I know new California's are £40k plus, so well out of range. But I don't know about second hand t4 californias. I will take a look, thank you. Depreciation is a key issue, because i want us to be able to replace it in, say 10 years. Thanks again
TartanPaint said:
If you spend £8k doing a conversion, you'll never see that £8k again, because used conversions done by other people are worthless.
That's not necessarily true. I sold our home conversion with professionally fitted pop top for about a £1k loss after three years use.The main issue is that a T5 camper is tight for 5, and Californias only seat 2 in the back.
I have a T4 California and it is fully kitted out and would cost less than your budget but as mentioned they are only really have 4 seats so no good. Same with a T5 Cali.
You could get a van and convert and buy a 3 seater RIB bed in the back. This would mean no side units apart from maybe a small pod behind the driver. The other option could be to keep the twin front passenger seat and a 2 seater bed in the rear. A lot of the rock and roll beds are now crash tested and belted.
There are companies that retro fit the rails and rear seats from a caravelle which could be another choice, so more factory spec.
You could get a van and convert and buy a 3 seater RIB bed in the back. This would mean no side units apart from maybe a small pod behind the driver. The other option could be to keep the twin front passenger seat and a 2 seater bed in the rear. A lot of the rock and roll beds are now crash tested and belted.
There are companies that retro fit the rails and rear seats from a caravelle which could be another choice, so more factory spec.
Thanks for the thoughts. I guess we should stress test a van to see if it works with all of the kids, but as we need this as our main vehicle for long journeys, i don't think a full caravan or motor home will work for us. We were thinking more of van plus awning. Maybe *a lot* of awning.
Mini, yes I had seen those 3 seater rib seats, and that is what I had in mind. Conscious something has to go, so know that would need to be storage space. Not even that bothered about having cooking facilities tbh, although I think I saw somewhere you need to have a hob in order to get the road tax down. Don't know if that's true.
So a caravelle is basically a combi but with more windows and more plush finishing (like insulation) inside, yeah?
We run a T4 conversion for two grown ups, 2 kids and a dog. The van is perfect for days out and when we go camping we get a pitch with "awning" space but actually pit up a 4 man tent. Never had an issue and the van plus tent give us plenty of space. Perfect setup for a van that suits us for days out as well as camping trips. As said above, not going to depreciate. I don't believe it needs to be a VW conversion as long as it is a good aftermarket one.
AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
I'm somewhat obsessed with safety, especially for the kids in the back
I have 5 years old twins and this was also my main concern especially swapping a C class Merc with all the safety features for a custom T5.AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
so we can make sure the seats are properly installed (and ideally crash tested).
Are you thinking of getting a Rock and Roll Bed as make sure it is M1 crash tested with proper seat belt. We had the Bristol Smart Bed installed in ours and it is rock solid. Also look at Reimo rear seats, but these are pretty costly.AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
How does putting a pop top into a panel van (or even MPV) effect its integrity and safety in a crash?
I queried this and was shown the metal struts they fitted once they cut the roof out. Without these yes it would be very dangerous van. Our twins sleep in the popup and we sleep on the rock and roll bed. I never notice any flexing of the van.AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
Ditto putting windows into a panel van; does that make the structure less robust? (Would we be better off getting a combi base vehicle?)
The windows we had placed are integral to the structure so toughened glass.AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
I also worry about all that ply that is put in Campervans to line them. How does that effect the impact on rear passengers in a crash?
Do you mean all the kitchen units? As again these should be properly fitted and not fly around on impact.AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
Also, the likelihood we will need to get our own conversion done (costing I guess around £8k) means we will want the base vehicle to last a VERY long time. My partner says that makes VW (T5 probs) the only real option. And diesel. Any other views?
Biggest problem is finding a good donor vehicle, there are a lot of lemons out there. We also budgeted for 10K for the vehicle, but had to push up the budget significantly, but we did want the 140bhp 6 speed van with air-con (quite rare). The conversion if done by a decent company is not going to be cheap, but if you don't want kitchen etc then maybe a Caravelle is the best option as you get the seats and windows already in place. Don't forget do you want a tired van and then spend 10K converting it, we didn't so got a ex-lease T5 direct from VW with a years warranty and less than 25K miles on the clock. We have 3 seats in the front, the twins sit in their Recaro child seats in the front, and love the world they can see. If you do get a gas burner installed, make sure you get a gas safety certificate (like home), because it means it has been tested properly (our burner failed from manufacture and the conversion company rejected them). You will also need this for the vehicle insurance.
It is a bit of a minefield out there, we did our research and the conversion company showed us conversions they had done and ones in progress. They also where happy for me to pop in whenever and sent me updated pictures of every bit of work. They also sorted out the V5 document to get it converted from 3 seat van to motorhome with 5 seats.
Forget camping with 3 kids in a T5. I have 1 child and its at its limit with the stuff we carry (and we are light campers but do take bikes).
You need a van for 3 in the back, which prevents you having a 3/4 R&R poptop with side kitchen as theres not enough seatbelts.
You can have a full width bed with 3 belts, but then you still have to site a kitchen unit and the pop up will only sleep 2.
It would be very cramped with 5 people in a T5!
You would definitely need an awning, and something like a Khyam 480 with living space for 4 would be ideal, but at that size, you might as well just buy a large tent! If you really want a van for carrying stuff, get a Kombi, fitted out with 3 rear seats and belts and just use it as a large car. Behind the 3 seats is a massive rear space for taking all the camping gear and you could build a platform in the back so that you have under platform and above platform storage. Otherwise, buy an estate and a trailer.
If you fail to be convinced by some first hand experience spanning over 6 months of nights in the van, then make sure you get a seat which is pull tested, and make sure the conversion is of sufficient quality which is put together properly.
You need a van for 3 in the back, which prevents you having a 3/4 R&R poptop with side kitchen as theres not enough seatbelts.
You can have a full width bed with 3 belts, but then you still have to site a kitchen unit and the pop up will only sleep 2.
It would be very cramped with 5 people in a T5!
You would definitely need an awning, and something like a Khyam 480 with living space for 4 would be ideal, but at that size, you might as well just buy a large tent! If you really want a van for carrying stuff, get a Kombi, fitted out with 3 rear seats and belts and just use it as a large car. Behind the 3 seats is a massive rear space for taking all the camping gear and you could build a platform in the back so that you have under platform and above platform storage. Otherwise, buy an estate and a trailer.
If you fail to be convinced by some first hand experience spanning over 6 months of nights in the van, then make sure you get a seat which is pull tested, and make sure the conversion is of sufficient quality which is put together properly.
You can get a side conversion camper with a 3 seater bench. 2 such examples of the Reimo Triostyle and then the slightly simpler Reimo CityVan. You'll almost definitely need a Long Wheel Base van though to get the storage room. We only have 2 kids but we enjoy the extra bed width. The kids (13 &16) sleep in the awning and a separate tent nowadays but 5 years ago they would sleep in the roof.
T4s are almost out of the question because only the last year or so of production was EU3 standard and most campervans are too heavy to skip under the weight regs (although I did re plate my old 5 seater Reimo Weekender down below the target weight from LEZ).
You're correct about side windows in panel vans. The Kombi/Shuttle and Caravelle have bonded side skins so they're stiffer.
To be honest you're not going to get a decent T5 and a conversion on your budget but you could get a nice Shuttle and a big awning? Then maybe in the future do some sort of basic conversion. There are kits like the Reimo Bike and Surf which just fix into the back of a Kombi/Shuttle to give pop up bed/storage/kitchen etc.
Regarding your question about VED - you cant change a vehicles VED by making it into a camper. You only get van tax on a camper if you convert it prior to first registration. My Window Van was converted but I still pay £290 a year (diesel car rate) so dont buy a 2.5 Caravelle Auto and expect to dodge the ~£500 VED. Later 2.0 models are lower CO2 so lower tax.
If you did get a 2.0 Kombi you need to note that they're classed as commercial vehicles so if you do a partial conversion and dont get re classification to motorcaravan then you'll be restricted to van speed limits. The Shuttle and Caravelle are classed as cars so normal limits apply.
T4s are almost out of the question because only the last year or so of production was EU3 standard and most campervans are too heavy to skip under the weight regs (although I did re plate my old 5 seater Reimo Weekender down below the target weight from LEZ).
You're correct about side windows in panel vans. The Kombi/Shuttle and Caravelle have bonded side skins so they're stiffer.
To be honest you're not going to get a decent T5 and a conversion on your budget but you could get a nice Shuttle and a big awning? Then maybe in the future do some sort of basic conversion. There are kits like the Reimo Bike and Surf which just fix into the back of a Kombi/Shuttle to give pop up bed/storage/kitchen etc.
Regarding your question about VED - you cant change a vehicles VED by making it into a camper. You only get van tax on a camper if you convert it prior to first registration. My Window Van was converted but I still pay £290 a year (diesel car rate) so dont buy a 2.5 Caravelle Auto and expect to dodge the ~£500 VED. Later 2.0 models are lower CO2 so lower tax.
If you did get a 2.0 Kombi you need to note that they're classed as commercial vehicles so if you do a partial conversion and dont get re classification to motorcaravan then you'll be restricted to van speed limits. The Shuttle and Caravelle are classed as cars so normal limits apply.
Danbury do a 5 seat conversion T5s, but you won't get any change out of £30k.
Alphards and Elgrands with a pop-top are an option - you can sleep 4 inside (2 up and 2 down), but will need a reasonable awning and maybe even a tail box or roof box for all your kit. These conversions have a basic rear kitchen and retain the middle row of 3 seats. You'd get one for well under £20k and could even buy one as an MPV and take it to the likes of Northstar for a conversion to your spec.
(The alternative is a VW Caravelle with the middle seats retained, these are bigger, but the base vehicle will be older, higher mileage, lower spec - or perhaps a Ford Tourneo or Renault Master with seats could be found?)
Alphards and Elgrands with a pop-top are an option - you can sleep 4 inside (2 up and 2 down), but will need a reasonable awning and maybe even a tail box or roof box for all your kit. These conversions have a basic rear kitchen and retain the middle row of 3 seats. You'd get one for well under £20k and could even buy one as an MPV and take it to the likes of Northstar for a conversion to your spec.
(The alternative is a VW Caravelle with the middle seats retained, these are bigger, but the base vehicle will be older, higher mileage, lower spec - or perhaps a Ford Tourneo or Renault Master with seats could be found?)
AreWeNearlyThereYet said:
Actually we were thinking of getting a tow along trailer for the kids; let them enjoy more of the great outdoors 
We camper a few years back next to a family with a Brenderup trailer and it had the bikes on top with a gas strut lid and held a massive amount. Def a good idea.I've two small humans and really fancied a T5. Spending lots of time in the south west seeing them everywhere really planted that seed.
Having spent an age looking at vehicles, conversion costs for projects and the end result for the outlay - I own a 6 berth touring caravan.
There is no way we as a family of four could have lived in a T5 for more than a couple of nights without adding on drive away tent awning, by which time we'd really be spending way in to five figures on a vehicle to live mostly in a tent anyway. With the added non benefit of using a van as a car on a regular basis.
There is nothing to stop you storing a caravan somewhere in an area you like then touring it out from the storage facility - I'd considered storing ours in the north of England somewhere as we tend to head south from Edinburgh with ours anyway. Doing more than half a journey not towing would speed up journey times and improve fuel costs too. Were you to store somewhere off the M4 corridor you're half way to the Cotswolds, Wales and the South West by the time a 'van is hooked on.
You could even consider a seasonal pitch somewhere within a couple of hours of home for the weekends - Nothing to stop you taking it further afield from its seasonal pitch whenever you fancy too.
OP I know this isn't what you asked but its worth some though £15k would see you with this
http://caravans.autotrader.co.uk/used-caravans/swi...
plus five grand left to plough in to something suitable to tow with if you don't have a suitable vehicle already.
Having spent an age looking at vehicles, conversion costs for projects and the end result for the outlay - I own a 6 berth touring caravan.
There is no way we as a family of four could have lived in a T5 for more than a couple of nights without adding on drive away tent awning, by which time we'd really be spending way in to five figures on a vehicle to live mostly in a tent anyway. With the added non benefit of using a van as a car on a regular basis.
There is nothing to stop you storing a caravan somewhere in an area you like then touring it out from the storage facility - I'd considered storing ours in the north of England somewhere as we tend to head south from Edinburgh with ours anyway. Doing more than half a journey not towing would speed up journey times and improve fuel costs too. Were you to store somewhere off the M4 corridor you're half way to the Cotswolds, Wales and the South West by the time a 'van is hooked on.
You could even consider a seasonal pitch somewhere within a couple of hours of home for the weekends - Nothing to stop you taking it further afield from its seasonal pitch whenever you fancy too.
OP I know this isn't what you asked but its worth some though £15k would see you with this
http://caravans.autotrader.co.uk/used-caravans/swi...
plus five grand left to plough in to something suitable to tow with if you don't have a suitable vehicle already.
Edited by ALY77 on Saturday 25th February 19:35
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