Minibus/Large Panel Van MPG
Discussion
Currently planning a DIY camper project for the summer after being quite disappointed in the quality/value for money you get with commercially available models.
I started off looking at T5 Transporters but a few bigger things have caught my eye and seem to offer better value.
Going for something bigger would also give the space for a permanent bed, proper luggage space and maybe even a little wood burner with some careful planning.
The only thing putting me off is the potential running costs - am I being unrealistic that something this size will do 30 mpg if driven half sensibly?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/17-Seat-Fiat-Ducato...
I started off looking at T5 Transporters but a few bigger things have caught my eye and seem to offer better value.
Going for something bigger would also give the space for a permanent bed, proper luggage space and maybe even a little wood burner with some careful planning.
The only thing putting me off is the potential running costs - am I being unrealistic that something this size will do 30 mpg if driven half sensibly?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/17-Seat-Fiat-Ducato...
Stupid question - are you sure you can legally drive that without doing serious paperwork?
I have no idea how old you are, or when you passed your test...
If you passed your test after the start of 1997, you'll only be legal up to 8 passenger seats (B).
If you passed your test before, then that's RIGHT on the upper limit - 16 + driver (D1).
Even if you took the seats out, it's down to what the paperwork says.
Woodburners inside vans can be a bit dodgy - make sure you've got a CO alarm and plenty of ventilation, and be aware the outsides get VERY hot. A £10 eBay IR thermometer is a good idea.
I have no idea how old you are, or when you passed your test...
If you passed your test after the start of 1997, you'll only be legal up to 8 passenger seats (B).
If you passed your test before, then that's RIGHT on the upper limit - 16 + driver (D1).
Even if you took the seats out, it's down to what the paperwork says.
Woodburners inside vans can be a bit dodgy - make sure you've got a CO alarm and plenty of ventilation, and be aware the outsides get VERY hot. A £10 eBay IR thermometer is a good idea.
Yup, I realise about the license issues, will get my old man to give me a hand collecting it and then it'll be stored on private ground until it's re-registered as a 3 seater motorhome. Will also be sure to stick to 3500 kg MAM vans.
I've installed a few woodburners in unusual places (summerhouse and canvas tent!) so well aware of the issues - will be adhere to all specified clearance requirements and fit caging to make sure nothing flammable can even get close to anything hot. Thanks for the thoughts though!
If a large coachbuilt Hymer can manage 25mpg then surely a modern more streamlined panel van conversion should manage a fair bit more?
I've installed a few woodburners in unusual places (summerhouse and canvas tent!) so well aware of the issues - will be adhere to all specified clearance requirements and fit caging to make sure nothing flammable can even get close to anything hot. Thanks for the thoughts though!
If a large coachbuilt Hymer can manage 25mpg then surely a modern more streamlined panel van conversion should manage a fair bit more?
ked everywhere, 30mpg is not unrealistic if it was driven sensibly.My father bought and converted a Ducato with the 1.9 130hp engine (just coming up to 3yr old now). I am pretty sure he gets mid to high 30's doing a mix of m/way and flat a-b road work, it drops a bit when he comes to visit us in the peak district. I would have thought the 3.0l you linked to would be quite a bit thirstier. His previous van a iveco used to be more like high 20's.
The Ducato drives pretty well but the front wheel drive set up doesn't like wet grass on campsites.
The Ducato drives pretty well but the front wheel drive set up doesn't like wet grass on campsites.
snowandrocks said:
If a large coachbuilt Hymer can manage 25mpg then surely a modern more streamlined panel van conversion should manage a fair bit more?
Don't forget those Hymers are mostly Ducatos underneath - and the "coachbuilt" bodywork's not exactly heavy - it's "stick-and-staple", same as a caravan, with a very thin outer skin. The weight is in the internal fittings, insulation, water, etc.TooMany2cvs said:
snowandrocks said:
If a large coachbuilt Hymer can manage 25mpg then surely a modern more streamlined panel van conversion should manage a fair bit more?
Don't forget those Hymers are mostly Ducatos underneath - and the "coachbuilt" bodywork's not exactly heavy - it's "stick-and-staple", same as a caravan, with a very thin outer skin. The weight is in the internal fittings, insulation, water, etc.Too many windows for a camper, it will get cold inside very quickly.
Also means less flexibility with tall units showers/toilets etc, harder to get privacy esp at night when lights are on.
You would be better off with a naked van and start from scratch,which will also mean less licence bother.
Also means less flexibility with tall units showers/toilets etc, harder to get privacy esp at night when lights are on.
You would be better off with a naked van and start from scratch,which will also mean less licence bother.
I may just be the Hymer motorhome owner! 
Mine's an A-class so a Little more streamlined than a coachbuilt, but more bluff frontage, so not much in it in all likelihood.
It's on a 2001 Merc 416 CDI Sprinter (2.7l 5-cylinder turbo diesel) and has a MGW of 4.6t. Best fuel economy I've had out of it was 27mpg on the run down from Fort William to Manchester. That was a mix of sitting at 50mph (and slightly less) through the highlands and 60mph constant on the motorway.
Average is 22mpg.
At a guess I would imagine a Ducato would be pushing 30mpg on a run but very dependent (as with everything) on how you drive it and what kind of run you get. Traffic and steep gradients etc. will kill it just as much as it would in a car - but worse, given all the weight you're carrying around. My Hymer was doing around 14mpg on the singletrack mountain roads, for example.
Only thing I would advise against on a minibus is the sheer amount of glass. Glass is a superb conductor of heat (which is bad in motorhomes etc) as it acts as a heat sink in winter and a greenhouse in summer. If I were you, I would look at get a panel van rather than a minibus as you will have to find a way of insulating the Windows, which will be a pain and relatively ineffective. It's one of the only downsides of an A-class - a big windscreen out front means aircon works overtime when the sun is shining and needs the heater in the winter. A thermal blanket over the outside of the windscreen is a necessity - which is fine for a windscreen, but I'd be a bit annoyed if I had to insulate all the windows and block the light out in a PVC.
Mine's an A-class so a Little more streamlined than a coachbuilt, but more bluff frontage, so not much in it in all likelihood.
It's on a 2001 Merc 416 CDI Sprinter (2.7l 5-cylinder turbo diesel) and has a MGW of 4.6t. Best fuel economy I've had out of it was 27mpg on the run down from Fort William to Manchester. That was a mix of sitting at 50mph (and slightly less) through the highlands and 60mph constant on the motorway.
Average is 22mpg.
At a guess I would imagine a Ducato would be pushing 30mpg on a run but very dependent (as with everything) on how you drive it and what kind of run you get. Traffic and steep gradients etc. will kill it just as much as it would in a car - but worse, given all the weight you're carrying around. My Hymer was doing around 14mpg on the singletrack mountain roads, for example.
Only thing I would advise against on a minibus is the sheer amount of glass. Glass is a superb conductor of heat (which is bad in motorhomes etc) as it acts as a heat sink in winter and a greenhouse in summer. If I were you, I would look at get a panel van rather than a minibus as you will have to find a way of insulating the Windows, which will be a pain and relatively ineffective. It's one of the only downsides of an A-class - a big windscreen out front means aircon works overtime when the sun is shining and needs the heater in the winter. A thermal blanket over the outside of the windscreen is a necessity - which is fine for a windscreen, but I'd be a bit annoyed if I had to insulate all the windows and block the light out in a PVC.
Edited by Spuffington on Tuesday 2nd May 19:08
we too have a Hymer
Fiat Ducato base 3.0 160hp x250 model
on our recent 1280mile trip
we averaged 23mpg
that was motorway/lakedistrict/yorkshire/derbyshire/cotswolds and then down to Cornwall
6 spped only dropped cruise control once on a long gradient.
driven at reasonable speeds
vehicle is 4000kg MGW
the body work is Not stick and staple
but Ali PAU construct the front is fibreglass
interior again is decent quality
120litre onboard water tanks
twin gas bottles and a fugging huge leisure battery
then all our food/clothes etc.
still my freelander with 3 in will only really manage 30Mpg
so consumption is not as bad as it could be.
Fiat Ducato base 3.0 160hp x250 model
on our recent 1280mile trip
we averaged 23mpg
that was motorway/lakedistrict/yorkshire/derbyshire/cotswolds and then down to Cornwall
6 spped only dropped cruise control once on a long gradient.
driven at reasonable speeds
vehicle is 4000kg MGW
the body work is Not stick and staple
but Ali PAU construct the front is fibreglass
interior again is decent quality
120litre onboard water tanks
twin gas bottles and a fugging huge leisure battery
then all our food/clothes etc.
still my freelander with 3 in will only really manage 30Mpg
so consumption is not as bad as it could be.
lHymer on 2.5 diesel Ducato base. Certainly as aerodynamic as a house but doesn't feel especially thirsty, although if I was to sit at 65mph all day it is different to trundling around the new forest at 35mph which we tend to do.
Having said that, the mpg cost is the least of my worries with something like this!
Thanks for all the responses everyone.
Looks like I should be able to scrape 30 mpg then on a tour which is more than acceptable.
Wrt to the amount of glass, glass isn't going to be whole lot worse thermally than a single sheet of thin metal that a normal van would consist of. In any case, the rear half at least would have the windows tinted, then fully internally lined with foil quilt insulation and boarded out with tongue and groove. I would keep the front half/living area mostly glazed but have thermal lined screens/blinds for the winter.
I'm not keen on the idea of being of being confined in a gloomy panel van conversion with no view and little in the way of natural light so would probably end up fitting loads of (expensive) windows anyway!
Looking to do something along these lines but with a less bulky kitchen setup.
https://www.quirkycampers.co.uk/campervans/bristol...
Looks like I should be able to scrape 30 mpg then on a tour which is more than acceptable.
Wrt to the amount of glass, glass isn't going to be whole lot worse thermally than a single sheet of thin metal that a normal van would consist of. In any case, the rear half at least would have the windows tinted, then fully internally lined with foil quilt insulation and boarded out with tongue and groove. I would keep the front half/living area mostly glazed but have thermal lined screens/blinds for the winter.
I'm not keen on the idea of being of being confined in a gloomy panel van conversion with no view and little in the way of natural light so would probably end up fitting loads of (expensive) windows anyway!
Looking to do something along these lines but with a less bulky kitchen setup.
https://www.quirkycampers.co.uk/campervans/bristol...
snowandrocks said:
Wrt to the amount of glass, glass isn't going to be whole lot worse thermally than a single sheet of thin metal that a normal van would consist of.
Exactly. And the metal would normally be insulated.Our Westfalia VW T25 has double-glazed plastic throughout the rear - and you can REALLY feel the difference with the glass in the front. External thermal screens make a huge difference.
TooMany2cvs said:
Exactly. And the metal would normally be insulated.
Our Westfalia VW T25 has double-glazed plastic throughout the rear - and you can REALLY feel the difference with the glass in the front. External thermal screens make a huge difference.
Absolutely - the amount of insulation in a PVC is significant compared with just bare glass. Do not underestimate how cold the glass will be. And then also consider condensation. It'll be monumentally unpleasant having so much condensation on the glass.Our Westfalia VW T25 has double-glazed plastic throughout the rear - and you can REALLY feel the difference with the glass in the front. External thermal screens make a huge difference.
Do VW California's and the like have double glazing or something then? As far as I can see they just have the standard glass fitted with internal blinds?
I also regularly sleep in the back of my Land Cruiser on climbing trips and a cracked window is enough to keep the condensation mostly at bay unless it's a particularly frosty/calm night. I would also expect the continual draw of fresh air/dehumidifying effect of the woodburner would help massively.
I also regularly sleep in the back of my Land Cruiser on climbing trips and a cracked window is enough to keep the condensation mostly at bay unless it's a particularly frosty/calm night. I would also expect the continual draw of fresh air/dehumidifying effect of the woodburner would help massively.
Couldn't tell you definitively but all I know is that when it's cold outside and I have the heater (blown air, so also dry) on in my A-class, without the thermal blanket on the front windscreen, I get more condensation on the inside of that glass than I can cope with.
All the other habitation windows are double-glazed and I don't get an issue.
All the other habitation windows are double-glazed and I don't get an issue.
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