Book writers of PH

[andyroo]

Ayahuasca said:

I have written 60,000 words of my first novel, sent off the usual couple of chapters to a few agents but no interest. I am not drawn to self-publishing - my view is that, if it is any good, the traditional agent - publisher - big advance - life of luxury and book launches would follow.

Publishers aren't looking for good, they're looking for commercial. You think Katie Price's autobiography is good? Of course not! There is a lot of luck involved in being selected by a big publisher, plus it helps knowing the right people. I've had several rejections from top agents who have said my work is very good, but not commercial enough to take a risk on.

[andyroo]

LeftmostAardvark said:

Some of the best (in terms of well received and best selling) books started off as self published. The self publishing market is a real game changer - publishers can check how well a book is received before committing an advance. It has essentially de risked the market for them. It also knackers the agent side of things, as there is no longer a 'sell' - why would anyone listen to someone trying to sell s debut novel with speculation on how well it is going to sell, when they can simply check the previous sales data and correlate it with reviews.

I think (and it is only my thoughts, not substantive proof), that authors only really get picked up after the second self published book. Ideal timeline (and something i'm about to test with my second book in a week or so) is something like this:
1. Book 1 sells well and is reviewed well
2. Book 2 released and is instantly picked up by the fan base established by book 1
3. Book 2 gets prominent (goes up the chart) and spikes a resurgence of interest in book 1.

These can give some useful metrics that can give a pretty good idea about the level of fan base an author is likely to establish. I'll try and analyse how it goes for me in the next month and report back.

This correlates with the research I've done.

[LeftmostAardvark]

Some quick advice please. My second book is a sequel to Hell's Garden (both in the crime thriller genre), which got generally good reviews but with a couple of complaints about the violence and one about the sex (I think from a vicar).

The second one is more so - more sex and about the same level of violence. However, as I'm working through the final edit, I get to one particular chapter (52) and I keep thinking to myself that maybe I've gone a bit too far. It is pure filth and borderline pornographic.

So, the question: would a typical reader of a crime thriller find that level of sex would detract from the book? I'm certainly not looking forward to my MILs reaction, but she isn't the demographic I'm looking for. I wouldn't want to alienate my potential fan base by overdoing the filth. FWIW, it does have a place in the plot, although it is a little tenuous.

[SV8Predator]

In the most successful examples of books in your chosen genre, there is very little sex. I think that once past puberty there's no need to read about it anyway.

Why have you included it, and so graphically?

[LeftmostAardvark]

SV8Predator said:

In the most successful examples of books in your chosen genre, there is very little sex. I think that once past puberty there's no need to read about it anyway.

Why have you included it, and so graphically?

A number of reasons really:
1. It fits the plot - drugs and the war between good and evil (by definition it is a hedonistic work where normal rules don't apply, so people can do pretty much whatever they want). That surely is the basis for most crime thriller novels: escapism and transporting the reader to an alternate universe where they imagine themselves in the story). If I was in the position of my main character, I'd be damn sure I'd be snagging everything in sight.
2. This book is entering the market post 50 shades - the sex is almost expected.
3. I need to establish the character as evil and their sexual proclivities are a good way to do that.

Also, I disagree with your point that crime thrillers don't hae much sex in them. James Patterson for example, is complete kinky fkery... James Bond, whilst not explicit, is based upon the heavy suggestion of a lot of sex. The exception is Jack Reacher, but even Lee Child seems to be succumbing in his later books. However, I'm still unsure whether I've overstepped the mark this time. It needs to be central to th character's natural reactions IYSWIM and I worry that the sex defines the characters rather than the other way round.

[andyroo]

LeftmostAardvark said:

Some quick advice please. My second book is a sequel to Hell's Garden (both in the crime thriller genre), which got generally good reviews but with a couple of complaints about the violence and one about the sex (I think from a vicar).

The second one is more so - more sex and about the same level of violence. However, as I'm working through the final edit, I get to one particular chapter (52) and I keep thinking to myself that maybe I've gone a bit too far. It is pure filth and borderline pornographic.

So, the question: would a typical reader of a crime thriller find that level of sex would detract from the book? I'm certainly not looking forward to my MILs reaction, but she isn't the demographic I'm looking for. I wouldn't want to alienate my potential fan base by overdoing the filth. FWIW, it does have a place in the plot, although it is a little tenuous.

I would be more concerned with the limitations on reviews and advertising that excessive levels of graphic sexual content would have. Many explicitly state they won't touch anything like that.

[Roy Lime]

andyroo said:

Not sure how much you know about professional editing, but there are three main levels: the developmental/substantive edit, where the plot and characters are discussed in a general sense; the line/copyedit, where flow and and general readability are streamlined; and proofreading, the nitpicking of grammar and spelling. I would suggest the publisher is referring to the middle one, just so the fluff is removed and the book flows as well as it can to give the reader no opportunity to trip up. A professional edit should cost you between £500-£1000, and is well worth it; it will even help you learn what your writing foibles are to improve for your next work.

Fair enough; I know nothing at all about editing. What you seem to be suggesting isn't quite (that was meant to be in italics) what I'm being told. Apparently it reads well but the specific problem, according to that particular publisher, was stereotypical characters. Again, the characters are deliberately stereotypical (PH would love it ). If I have it edited at this stage, who's to say it won't put the next publisher off?

andyroo said:

Some info for you: new authors, even ones taken on by big publishers, are often left to market their own work. If you can't attract a commitment from a publisher, I would suggest that the quality of your work is not the problem, but your marketability.

I completely agree with this. Publishers seem to be looking for a quirk and I'm Mr Normal. It makes me wonder how people used to get published.

By the way, have you read it yet Andy?

[andyroo]

Roy Lime said:

Fair enough; I know nothing at all about editing. What you seem to be suggesting isn't quite (that was meant to be in italics) what I'm being told. Apparently it reads well but the specific problem, according to that particular publisher, was stereotypical characters. Again, the characters are deliberately stereotypical (PH would love it ). If I have it edited at this stage, who's to say it won't put the next publisher off?

Yeah, that sounds like part of a substantive edit, ie you might need to re-write large chunks of text. I would be very surprised if someone was giving you off advice, but a second opinion from a good editor would confirm it if it is a genuine concern.

Roy Lime said:

I completely agree with this. Publishers seem to be looking for a quirk and I'm Mr Normal. It makes me wonder how people used to get published.

By the way, have you read it yet Andy?

I'm afraid I haven't - I haven't been able to read anything for months I've been so busy :-(

[poshboyracer]

Roy Lime said:

andyroo said:

Some info for you: new authors, even ones taken on by big publishers, are often left to market their own work. If you can't attract a commitment from a publisher, I would suggest that the quality of your work is not the problem, but your marketability.

I completely agree with this. Publishers seem to be looking for a quirk and I'm Mr Normal. It makes me wonder how people used to get published.

By the way, have you read it yet Andy?

I'd definitely have a bash at self-publishing. I've just done it with the book I've co-authored. There's some technical faff involved, but that's more for the print versions. Ebooks are pretty easy if you know your way around MS Word.

I think that getting your work out there and read by real people is a more worthwhile expense of effort than submitting to publishers. If it's good, people will buy it and the publishers will come to you. Also, the margins on self-publishing are significantly higher than through a publisher. Some channels offer 85%.

This makes for an interesting read on the process of submitting to publishers: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jul/19/books.bo...

[SV8Predator]

poshboyracer said:

If it's good, people will buy it and the publishers will come to you.

I see your chosen genre is fiction?

Edited by SV8Predator on Sunday 20th October 20:27

[poshboyracer]

SV8Predator said:

poshboyracer said:

If it's good, people will buy it and the publishers will come to you.

I see you're chosen genre is fiction?

Yeah - we wanted to write a thriller, because that's what we like to read. The problem is that it's a super-competitive marketplace, with loads of established authors. To be noticed amongst the crowds will be difficult. We wrote the book we wanted to read - a non-dour British thriller hero - and just hope that other people have been looking for that too.

To be fair thought, actually writing and publishing the book has been such an enjoyable and satisfying process, it's almost an end in itself.

[LeftmostAardvark]

ARGGGHHHHH!

just spent the last four months getting closer and closer to a publishing deal with a big publisher. Got the call today to say it hadn't got through the final committee. Feedback was that the book was great, but it didn't fit with their overall strategy for the next few months. SOOOO frustrated (although the editor that rang me was lovely and very apologetic that we'd got so far and fallen at the last hurdle).

wondering whether to get back on the agent trail now. There obviously seems to be an appetite in the publishing world for it.

[andyroo]

LeftmostAardvark said:

ARGGGHHHHH!

just spent the last four months getting closer and closer to a publishing deal with a big publisher. Got the call today to say it hadn't got through the final committee. Feedback was that the book was great, but it didn't fit with their overall strategy for the next few months. SOOOO frustrated (although the editor that rang me was lovely and very apologetic that we'd got so far and fallen at the last hurdle).

wondering whether to get back on the agent trail now. There obviously seems to be an appetite in the publishing world for it.

Very encouraging to have gone so far though, well done. You'll find a publisher brave enough sooner or later! If a publisher has shown that much interest, that'll be good bait for an agent I would have thought. Good luck!

[LeftmostAardvark]

andyroo said:

Very encouraging to have gone so far though, well done. You'll find a publisher brave enough sooner or later! If a publisher has shown that much interest, that'll be good bait for an agent I would have thought. Good luck!

Thanks. I'm going to dust off my contacts and send out some feelers in the next few days.

[Roy Lime]

Managed to delete my post. That's a nightmare for you. I'm contemplating looking at the agent route again too.

[Pesders]

My first and only book (so far) was accidentally published in in the name of my ex business partner rather than me. The publishers assumed that as he had written the other books in the series that he had also written this one (despite me sending them the copy and the final draft clearly having my name all over it). I suppose in a strange way this is accidental ghost writing. Unfortunately it only had one print run so the error could not be rectified. I have one copy of it myself where I have crossed out the other person's name and in written in mine.

[coppice]

I have written two books, both published by reasonably well known publishing houses. They are semi autobiographical on a central theme of flyfishing and the meaning of life sort of thing (think Fever Pitch and change the sport). I am proud to say my second book is the only one in the genre which includes a discussion about NASCAR racing and a comparison between Chapman's add lightness mantra and top end fly rods...!

I haven't got rich yet but my first book sold well for a first effort . The second one is a better book and had great reviews but poor sales. It seems to be the case that fewer people than ever want to sit down and read a book rather than browse websites (what am I doing now?)and fewer still will fork out £18 (or four car mag's worth )for 80,000 words.

But I have to say that seeing one's own book in Waterstone's and getting lots of letters from readers who have enjoyed it is bloody great.

I don't have any great wisdom to impart- all I do is think about the dna of a chapter, get a few themes in my head and sit down and write. And write . And write. Worry about the quality later when you edit. And re-edit and re-edit again.

I have written magazine articles for years and if anybody is thinking of doing a book , writing shorter stuff- factual articles , short stories, poetry, reviews etc - is really good practice to develop your 'writer's muscle'.

[Roy Lime]

Another publisher is reading my novel at the moment.

Yesterday I received an email stating it was, "really very good" and could be, "a definitive account of our times". I was then asked if I have any ideas about marketing it.

The novel is a satirical thriller. Does anyone have any genius marketing ideas?

[andyroo]

Roy Lime said:

Another publisher is reading my novel at the moment.

Yesterday I received an email stating it was, "really very good" and could be, "a definitive account of our times". I was then asked if I have any ideas about marketing it.

The novel is a satirical thriller. Does anyone have any genius marketing ideas?

Here's a foolproof ebook marketing plan (as used by a few new, self-published authors I've spoken to who have managed to reach and hold on to a top 100 slot on amazon.co.uk and .com). It's going to cost you though, anything up to and including a £1000.

- Prime social media followers for the launch date (ie Facebook, twitter, blog etc)
- Secure advertising for your launch week with Kindle Nation Daily, The Kindle Fire Department, Pixel of Ink, Ereadernewstoday, book blast, flurry of words, KUforum, indie book bargains, kindle book promos, book tweeting service, story finds, ereader cafe, zwoodlebooks and kindle book review.
- Secure advertising spaced out over the following months with the above.
- Have a freebie week if you can.
- Run a giveaway on Goodreads.

Keep the advertising ticking over and you should maintain a good position. I'll be doing this for the launch of my next book - with any luck the advertising spend will be reimbursed in sales.

To put it bluntly, successful books are well marketed books, and if you show this publisher that you understand that you aren't just expect people to flock to your book, they should take you seriously. Good luck, and well done!

[andyroo]

The Crack Fox said:

I've written a children's book that I thought was fantastic but didn't get published (yet).
I've co-written a book on cars that I thought was rubbish but did get published and earned me quite a bit of money.

It's a ridiculously fickle market. I was turned down by several agents who said my book was really good, but not commercially viable. Someone I know who received below average reviews after self-publishing (but did what I said in my post a few posts above and marketed the hell out of it) has just landed a top-flight agent. There is only one rule - money!