Oil - It might not be what you think!!

[opieoilman]

McFlurry

The smart car being a merc calls for an oil that meets the mercedes 229.1 or 229.3.

Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 0w-30
Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 5w-50 all year round.
Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 ester based. all year round.
Castrol Formula slx 0w-30
Mobil 1 0w-40 all year round.
Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 all year round.


You can go for any of these oils as they are all mercedes approved.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Guy.

[Imadreamer]

opieoilman said:

Imadreamer said: I did a bit of research into oils a couple of years ago and the Silkolene looked like a good option, I couldn't find it anywhere though and so stuck to Mobil 1. At the Autosport show (I think) at the NEC a couple of years ago there was a company selling it. I bought some from them and used it in the car but they only supply it in cases of 4x 5 litre containers so is a little pricey. I went back to Mobil 1 as at the time I couldn't afford another case and with the Mobil 1 I get slightly better MPG and also thought that the winter protection would be slightly better. I will go back to Silkolene though if you think it's the better oil? For a modded turbo engine the silkolene is more appropriate if driven hard as the 10w-50 will provide better protection, The 0w-40 will provide you with better cold start protection however with our uk climate the gaines over the ester 10w-50 are marginal, the 10w-50 is more than adaquate. In my opinion it beats the Mobil because it is ester based the Mobil is PAO based. Silkolene if you can get hold of it, I can help you there, now works out cheaper than Mobil 1. Send me an e-mail and I will forward onto you some prices and you can compare for your self. Cheers Guy.

YHM.

Cheers

[turbobloke]

Always used Mobil 1 Motorsport (15/50 IIRC), but out of interest what do you make of the Halfords brand that claims to meet the standards of the higher-priced 'fully synthetics'? I'm not tempted to use it, just wondered.

[gary_tholl]

Cool thread! Thanks for the info Guy.

I've got another 'what should I use' question for you, sorry.

It's an early 80's Cosworth BDD Formula Atlantic race engine. 11.1:1 compression, will do 10k rpm, 220hp out of 1.6L, dry sumped.

It is going into a street/autocross car, so it will see some hard use.

Now, since it's from an era before synthetic oils, do I use what was recommended at the time, or a new synthetic?

I'm liking the sound of the Silkolene, but would like to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about!

Thanks,
Gary

[mcflurry]

Thanks

[opieoilman]

turbobloke said:

Always used Mobil 1 Motorsport (15/50 IIRC), but out of interest what do you make of the Halfords brand that claims to meet the standards of the higher-priced 'fully synthetics'? I'm not tempted to use it, just wondered.

Mobil 1 15w-50 is a good quality PAO synthetic, my worry with own brand is they are made to a cost.

Imagine, you walk into Tescos and you can buy pepsi or you can buy blue and white stripy economy cola, both made by the same people but one is made at a cost, the result is the pepsi taste good and the blue and white stripy is just drinkable yet both pass the tests for human consumption.

Hope this helps.

Guy.

[opieoilman]

gary_tholl said:

Cool thread! Thanks for the info Guy. I've got another 'what should I use' question for you, sorry. It's an early 80's Cosworth BDD Formula Atlantic race engine. 11.1:1 compression, will do 10k rpm, 220hp out of 1.6L, dry sumped. It is going into a street/autocross car, so it will see some hard use. Now, since it's from an era before synthetic oils, do I use what was recommended at the time, or a new synthetic? I'm liking the sound of the Silkolene, but would like to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about! Thanks, Gary

Gary,

This is a unique one, I have passed it on to the Chief of the technical department for Silkolene, I will post his reply when I get it.

Cheers

Guy.

[Pigeon]

Opieoilman: what's your take on two-stroke oil for premix applications?

[judgea]

Guy, do you know if Royal Purple 20/50 ("Racing 51") is "real", or hydrocracked? Thanks.

[8Pack]

Guy! We ALL owe you a BIG - THANKS!!!!!!

I always understood that "synthetics" were like "nylon" type things, Long chain molechules or something? which didn't change viscosity much with increase in temperature like natural oils, hence good lubes.

You're info is very informative, THANK YOU!! Do hope you haven't "outed" yourself in the process! No need to give more Priv/info than needed! I for one didn't realise that this was the case.

I've used Mobil 1 for many years since a: MMmhh! fairly well known sidecar racer friend told me to switch to it, many years ago, must admit! My 15yr old Granny is STILL in peak form! after 100K.

>> Edited by 8Pack on Friday 3rd September 05:28

[opieoilman]

Pigeon said:

Opieoilman: what's your take on two-stroke oil for premix applications?

Pigeon,

How do you mean? there are a few choices for premix available, are you talking special pre mix oils or regular two stroke oil being used for premix?

Cheers

Guy.

[opieoilman]

judgea said:

Guy, do you know if Royal Purple 20/50 ("Racing 51") is "real", or hydrocracked? Thanks.

We dont actually know, I am trying to get some one to send me a sample so I can have it tested so we can be sure, any offers? However there is a problem with American oils and this is their VI improvers.

It may be best that all fans of U.S. oils close their ears or look away at this point, you may not like what you read!

Some basics first.

A good oil must be quite low in viscosity even in the cold, so that it gets around the engine in a fraction of a second on start-up. On the other hand, it must also protect engine components (piston rings for example) at temperatures up to 300 deg C without evaporating or carbonising, and maintain oil pressure.
Unmodified thin oils simply can't manage this balancing act. The answer is to use a mixture of thin oil and temperature sensitive polymer, so as the thin oil gets even thinner with increasing temperatures as the engine warms up, the polymer expands and fights back, keeping the viscosity at a reasonable level to hold oil pressure and film thickness on the bearings.
All oils have a viscosity index which is the number indicating that rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range (10w-40 vs 10w-40) but here it the important thing...............
They do not give an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown! (The oil film tearing or shearing)
This is all down to a very important additive called a Viscosity Index improver and it is critical that this is shear stable.
VI improvers like all other things in life vary in quality and this is down to cost and availability.
In other words, an oil can look great on paper and make impressive claims but, unless all the components are of high quality it will fail to perform under the most arduous conditions.

I asked John Rowland the Silkolene/Fuchs Chief R&D Chemist for 40 years to give me his opinion on U.S. oils for another car club and below was his reply:

Quote:

Guy,

The main problem with the majority of American Oils is that they have “low grade" Viscosity improvers in them. Good ones are just not available in the states due to the fact that they are just not required for the majority of American engines.

The consequence of this is, although the oils look good on paper with high VI indexes etc the low grade inprovers mean that they have a tendency to "shear down" causing a lack of oil pressure , after a couple of thousand miles hard use in a stressed engine. .

For example, the oil you are using may be a 10w-40 when first put in but could be operating as a 10W/20 after a few thousand miles! It’s the use that sorts them out.

JR

Unquote:

I was intrigued by Johns answer and wanted to know how he knew it was the case in the U.S. that good quality VI improvers were not available. His reply was as follows:

Quote:

We have found it is impossible to source shear stable VI improvers
in the U.S.A. even for ready money!

Unquote:

Bear in mind here that Fuchs/Silkolene is the largest independent Lube Oil Manufacturer in the World and has facilities in the U.S.

Mis-information abounds in the oil world and looking behind the marketing hype and claims is impossible unless of course you are a chemist and able to look deep into the oils make-up which neither you nor I can do!

Cheers

Guy.

[volvod5_dude]

Is Shell fully synthetic hydrocracked? I would be interested to know as that is what the dealer puts in my Volvo D5 Diesel.

[iwilson]

What about Motul oil. I asked you about it on SELOC but you must have been in a nomadic phase

I use Motul 300V 10W - 40.

From their website...

The reputation of Motul products for quality and performance was founded on the skills and experience of our engineers in the formulating of 100% synthetic ester-bases lubricants.


In 1972 Motul was the first to use Ester oils for Motorsports, transfering the technology from the aeronautic industry.
In 2004, the Double Ester Technology used in the 300V Motorsport range is breaking new grounds in Automotive racing.

The Double Ester Technology (complex esters ans polymer esters) is enhanced with high performing friction modifiers, guaranteeing :

Extra power output
Higher reliability

[mean'n'roofless]

Thanks Guy you're a star. I am now thinking of topping up my bat's piss 0-40 Mobil 1 to 15 - 50 in my 98 4l chim, unless you know better.

You mentioned Silkolene, for fast road use which would you go for

Thanks for spending so much time educating us

[opieoilman]

volvod5_dude said:

Is Shell fully synthetic hydrocracked? I would be interested to know as that is what the dealer puts in my Volvo D5 Diesel.

We believe they are modified mineral oils, some of them in the lowever viscosity rating such as a 0w or 5w will be blended with a PAO synthetic.

Cheers.

Guy.

[opieoilman]

iwilson said:

What about Motul oil. I asked you about it on SELOC but you must have been in a nomadic phase I use Motul 300V 10W - 40. From their website... The reputation of Motul products for quality and performance was founded on the skills and experience of our engineers in the formulating of 100% synthetic ester-bases lubricants. In 1972 Motul was the first to use Ester oils for Motorsports, transfering the technology from the aeronautic industry. In 2004, the Double Ester Technology used in the 300V Motorsport range is breaking new grounds in Automotive racing. The Double Ester Technology (complex esters ans polymer esters) is enhanced with high performing friction modifiers, guaranteeing : Extra power output Higher reliability

We know the Motul 300v is what they say it is, however even though it is ester based we do not know how much ester is within it, the information for that is not available and again it is an oil we are going to have tested. In most ester based oils there is around 10% in a good one it will be double this.

Cheers

Guy.

[opieoilman]

mean'n'roofless said:

Thanks Guy you're a star. I am now thinking of topping up my bat's piss 0-40 Mobil 1 to 15 - 50 in my 98 4l chim, unless you know better. You mentioned Silkolene, for fast road use which would you go for Thanks for spending so much time educating us

It depends on what you are using the car for, the problem with these big engines is they just dont get worked hard enough, even what you and I would consider a beating, the engine is barely breaking a sweat. If you use the car to pootle around the country side, and dont push it stick with the 0w-40 however that may be a bit thin for a raw V8, if you give the car a good beating either on the track or on the road I would go for a top quality Silkolene Pro S 10w-50. The Mobil 1 15w-50 is a top oil but the grade does not suit most peoples driving habits, its really race grade due to its poor cold start protection.

Cheers

Guy.

[NST]

Guy,

really interesting info on oils! i've always wondered about the quality of so called fully synthetic oils!

My Mondeo ST220 takes Ford Formula E 5W-30 'SAE' oil (semi synthetic) (i get the SAE code if that helps?). is this a good oil for engine? i do about 9-10K a year. but i tend to drive the car with a rather heavy foot (but not from cold!). i have thought about changing the oil to mobil 1 fully synthetic 0W-40 but aren't sure if that is ok for the engine.

I have noticed that oil has gone a very very dark brown even though the car has only done 6000miles. is that common?

what would u recommend? should i just change the oil on a regular basis? a dealer recommend Shell Helix 5W-30. is that any good?

excellent thread Sir !

thanks for any help

Narinder

[opieoilman]

NST said:

Guy, really interesting info on oils! i've always wondered about the quality of so called fully synthetic oils! My Mondeo ST220 takes Ford Formula E 5W-30 'SAE' oil (semi synthetic) (i get the SAE code if that helps?). is this a good oil for engine? i do about 9-10K a year. but i tend to drive the car with a rather heavy foot (but not from cold!). i have thought about changing the oil to mobil 1 fully synthetic 0W-40 but aren't sure if that is ok for the engine. I have noticed that oil has gone a very very dark brown even though the car has only done 6000miles. is that common? what would u recommend? should i just change the oil on a regular basis? a dealer recommend Shell Helix 5W-30. is that any good? excellent thread Sir ! thanks for any help Narinder

Narinder,

The Mondeo ST220 calls for an oil that meets the M2C9BA spec as you have a ZETEC engine. Obviously the ford brand oil should meet this spec and is generally a semi synth, However Fuchs have just developed a fully synthetic 5w-30 to meet this spec called the Titan XTR 5w-30 or the Total Quartz 9000 5w-30 that again meets this spec. My fear with own brand oils is they are made to a lower cost than the genuine branded alternatives.

Cheers

Guy.