Flemke - Is this your McLaren?
Discussion
iguana said:I understood the direction of your question; perhaps I myself was unclear.
Ah fair point, I do imagine its quite a bigger bang in a 962! , but I did mean as a road & occasional 'ring car, rather than v expensive track only toy, sure you can buy a regular 956/962 easy enough (Rothmans livery just like my old VFR Honda please
) but hardly road usable. Anyway cheers for answering.
What I meant was that the essence of what can be extracted from the Dauer 962 is likely to be the same thing as what can be extracted from the race cars, and likely to be extractable mainly on a circuit. Therefore why not have the real thing?
It's just that it is so tough to use these cars on public roads even partially as they were "meant" to be used. (Which obviously raises the question of what was the sense in which they were meant to be used.)
I can't organise my life around finding the right time and place on the Autobahn in which to go for a high-speed blast. Between the vagaries of traffic and weather, you just keep going around in circles looking for that magical moment, and if you find it, that's usually all that it is - a wee moment or two.
If you go in the other direction, and drive smaller cars that do not require speeds of >125 before they begin to come into their own, you'll have 50x as many minutes of fun.
Philhopkins said:Pizza at home's a bit too complex and messy for me.
Nothing relating to cars at all Flemke, nor is it psychological. I've just put a pizza in the oven for dinner and literally just wondered whether that was the kind of thing Mac F1 owners did.
I'm more a microwave pasta guy.
Philhopkins said:It's been a blast.
After all the energy and effort you've clearly put into owning this car, can you truly say you actually enjoy it? To me, it almost seems more scientific than passionate.
It's definitely not been scientfic. If anything it's been closer to insanity than to science. I think that you could only do what I've done through passion. In fact, on PH I don't even reveal the extent of my involvement in it.
Just for a superficial cut, however:
Driving the car is always an occasion.
Second, things such as the max speed run were a real kick.
Third, the car has directly or indirectly facilitated my knowing a lot of interesting and good folks.
Fourth, through the suspension project I have learnt a great deal (although, as they say, "I still don't know nothin'"!).
Fifth, I always enjoy discussing the car on PH.
Sixth, I have been able to share it with many people, and their pleasure has given me pleasure.
Seventh, it's a nice thing: nice to look at, nice to sit in, nice to try to figure out.
The hours that I have spent contemplating what colour it ought to be painted would have driven more balanced people up the wall. Rather, they've added to the stimulation that the car has given me.
In 2006, a Carrera GT is about science. An F1 is about passion.
flemke said:
...regarding your favourable comments on the handling of the NSX. I just wondered if you had ever run one and if not (assuming you have driven one to be able to comment) what are your overall impressions of the car?
First, welcome to PH.
Second, as regards the NSX:
I don't know much about cars; I'm just another guy who enjoys driving whilst lacking any special insight into what's going on as I do so.
In the last few months I've driven a recent-model NSX maybe 2,000 kms, including a number of laps of the 'ring.
The NSX chassis is very poised, and is the best thing about the car. From my position of ignorance I would say that its handling all-round is as good as that of any car I have driven.
You always know where you are with the car. It follows instructions nicely and allows you to control it. Its transitions are gradual and predictable. I've done a lot of laps of the'ring, and at Schwedenkreuz, which is perhaps the circuit's trickiest high-speed bend, I came closer to the car's limits whilst retaining control over it (or at least it seemed!) than I've done in any other car.
I would say that the NSX's primary ride for some people is too harsh, although the secondary ride seems fine.
It could do with a quicker steering rack. (The F1's rack is about equally slow, although that can be justified, I suppose, because the F1 lacks PAS and needs enhanced stability in light of its high max speed. These things do not apply to the NSX, so I don't know why its rack isn't quicker.)
Because of the PAS, you don't get the most surface feedback from the steering, but for an assisted car it's not bad. At the same time, the weighting is nice and the quality of rotational feedback I found to be quite good.
The NSX's brakes aren't the best - they began to fade on my first lap at the 'ring - but they're okay for a road car. They are over-servo'ed, however.
As you say, the engine has a lot of character. It produces something like 85 bhp/litre, whereas current high-performance engines easily generate more than 100/litre. It's not a problem in the upper 2000 rpms, where it's lovely - again, for a road car. It must be said, however, that the NSX really would benefit from more low-to-mid-range torque.
As you say, the engine note is musical. It's entirely different from the F1's but perhaps equally appealing.
The gearbox and shift action is superb - as good as any out there. Unfortunately the clutch pedal bite point is too high, and the bite itself is surprisingly vague (in my experience, that is).
People will have their opinions on the aesthetics; I find them appealingly quirky and in many cases handsome. There are some really nice details such as the external door handles and the interior door handles and leather-trimmed spaces behind them.
One frequently hears the objection that the NSX interior is dated. What an inane comment. Monet's Waterlilies series is dated too - but it's good enough for me!
The interior functions well - excelllent visibility in all directions except rear quarter. The ergonomics of the steering wheel and gearshift are quite good. The instruments are all legible, although one regrets the lack of an external temperature indication.
I think you could make the argument that the NSX is the most satisfying all-round sports car. If you combined the best of it and the best of the McLaren, you would have an incredible machine.
Cheers.
Flemke,
Thank you for you full reply. I would have to say that after running mine in from a 5 yr old car with 13,000 miles on the clock to a 6 yr old car with 30,000 miles on it I would have to agree with all of your points entirely. As a road car it is a great balance, but all of the nuances you have noticed on your laps are also very fair in their appraisal, and to its detrement when being really pushed on a track.
I would say that if you ever do get a chance to own a Type-R take it, it really is a car that deserves to sit along side some of the greats - and I think from everything I have learned regarding them that a lot of your issues with the road car have been resolved. The UK car for sale currently at £99K OIRO, has had a hard life, but they are Hondas ultimately and provided they are maintained properly will go on and on. There is an NSX in the states with 300,000+ miles on it - now how many 'supercars' would be capable of that?!
I will continue to read this thread with interest and look forward to seeing the F1's new shoes eventually!
Best Regards, Matt.
NsxMatt said:Matt,
I would say that if you ever do get a chance to own a Type-R take it, it really is a car that deserves to sit along side some of the greats - and I think from everything I have learned regarding them that a lot of your issues with the road car have been resolved. The UK car for sale currently at £99K OIRO, has had a hard life, but they are Hondas ultimately and provided they are maintained properly will go on and on.
That particular Type-R, in the course of being modified by Honda for its UK registration, got a sound system, a/c and a standard airbag steering wheel. Some of the weight reduction that is essential to the Type-R was thus reversed.
Obviously I don't know everything that Honda did to the Type-R to differentiate it from the standard cars, but almost everything that one reads about in magazines can be done to a standard car.
If you did all the Type-R mods yourself you would not have an official Type-R, but if you were really going to drive it 300,000 miles you wouldn't be worrying about residuals anyhow.
The point of the standard car, it seems to me, is its all-round competence. By focusing on and improving a slice of that competence, you compromise it in other ways. If you're willing to have a narrow-focus car, why would you start with an NSX? Start with something that was designed from scratch for that narrow brief.
I say this as a guy who cannot resist focusing his cars and making them less practical.
>> Edited by flemke on Thursday 27th April 11:01
flemke said:
I would say that if you ever do get a chance to own a Type-R take it, it really is a car that deserves to sit along side some of the greats - and I think from everything I have learned regarding them that a lot of your issues with the road car have been resolved. The UK car for sale currently at £99K OIRO, has had a hard life, but they are Hondas ultimately and provided they are maintained properly will go on and on.
That particular Type-R, in the course of being modified by Honda for its UK registration, got a sound system, a/c and a standard airbag steering wheel. Some of the weight reduction that is essential to the Type-R was thus reversed.
Obviously I don't know everything that Honda did to the Type-R to differentiate it from the standard cars, but almost everything that one reads about in magazines can be done to a standard car.
If you did all the Type-R mods yourself you would not have an official Type-R, but if you were really going to drive it 300,000 miles you wouldn't be worrying about residuals anyhow.
The point of the standard car, it seems to me, is its all-round competence. By focusing on and improving a slice of that competence, you compromise it in other ways. If you're willing to have a narrow-focus car, why would you start with an NSX? Start with something that was designed from scratch for that narrow brief.
I say this as a guy who cannot resist focusing his cars and making them less practical.
>> Edited by flemke on Thursday 27th April 11:01
Very good point. The NSX's greatest strength is without doubt its roundedness (Is that a proper word? I just hate the term 'competence'), and as a fast enjoyable road car (its too soft for track really) it is fantastically useable. It just happens to have the best gearchange in the business, induction noise to die for, and a pleasing lack of ubiquity (another is that a real word candidate?). But I would say why use an NSX to make a 'narrow focus car'? Why not!! Given that the starting point is a uniquely well balanced and biddable mid-engined chassis, one of the best drivetrains in the business and a driving position that puts the driver in the perfect place to exploit it I have to say I 'get it' (but then I would
). I understand that the late model Type-R is a wonderfully focused machine and it is resultantly wonderful to drive - the slow PAS steering is ditched for quicker non-assisited, the engine is blueprinted, the chassis hardened to a level familiar to 964RS owners.... £99k however is a leap too far IMO - I see it as an interesting toy to have in the garage @ around £60-70k (especially given that it was sold for this kind of level by Autocar some time ago...) >> Edited by trackdemon on Thursday 27th April 13:59
Hi Flemke
Congratulations on having one of the longest threads on PH.
I am intrigued to know if you are descended from the modified stock car racer, Eddie Flemke, or whether your PH name is (as I suspect) just a tribute to the great man.
I saw your F1 once and was totally impressed with the finish of it. It seemed to have a great patina, often lost in the garage queens. Lovely car!
Congratulations on having one of the longest threads on PH.
I am intrigued to know if you are descended from the modified stock car racer, Eddie Flemke, or whether your PH name is (as I suspect) just a tribute to the great man.
I saw your F1 once and was totally impressed with the finish of it. It seemed to have a great patina, often lost in the garage queens. Lovely car!
trackdemon said:"Roundedness" is a good word, and entirely legitimate, as is "ubiquity".
The NSX's greatest strength is without doubt its roundedness (Is that a proper word? I just hate the term 'competence'), and as a fast enjoyable road car (its too soft for track really) it is fantastically useable. It just happens to have the best gearchange in the business, induction noise to die for, and a pleasing lack of ubiquity (another is that a real word candidate?).
But I would say why use an NSX to make a 'narrow focus car'? Why not!! Given that the starting point is a uniquely well balanced and biddable mid-engined chassis, one of the best drivetrains in the business and a driving position that puts the driver in the perfect place to exploit it I have to say I 'get it' (but then I would
With respect to the supposed alterations to the Type-R (which, I hasten to add, I have not driven):
- If you make a rack quicker you must make the steering heavier. If at the same time you remove the PAS, it may become too heavy.
Look at the size of the front tyres and project how much weight is on the front axle and for a normal geometry you're getting into the territory of heavy steering. Something to think about.
- IIANM, "blueprinting" is a fairly obsolete process for a road car.
Modern machining tolerances are orders of magnitude tighter than they were a few decades ago when blueprinting was the sine qua non of a high-performance engine.
Modern lubricants are also vastly improved over their castor oil antecendents.
In addition, Honda's engine-building standards and quality control are nonpareil. They claim never to have had an engine failure amongst the 17 million+ VETECs that have left the factory.
With an engine that is pretty unstressed to begin with, I am not sure that "blueprinting" would make much of a difference.
If you said that the Type-R engine had different cams or mapping or something - and perhaps it does - that would be different.
- Hardening a suspension is simple if you know the specification of the changeable components. Bushes, springs, dampers - these are commodities that can be procured with relative ease. There's nothing special about an anti-roll bar either.
If the cambers, etc. are different, that's nothing more than adjustment.
I don't know it for a fact, but with 200+ Type-Rs in Japan, I should think that getting information about the various specs of the car should not be that difficult.
You can probably get a CF bonnet and raised wing from Japan with no problem. The undertray might be more difficult, but unless it's got some funky diffuser, I suspect that it's not difficult to fashion.
I'd guess that the main difference between the standard and Type-R is the weight. Take a standard car, get rid of the a/c, stereo, airbags, spare tyre and comfy electric seats and you're more than halfway there.
You would have to decide whether to do something about the brakes, although reduced overall weight would obviously help the situation. If you beefed up the brakes, you'd have added unsprung weight whilst you had reduced sprung weight. That would detract from the ride quality, and bigger brakes would make the steering heavier still.
Again we come to the question: "What is the purpose of this car?"
>> Edited by flemke on Thursday 27th April 14:54
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