Why do Women sit so close to the Steering Wheel?

[Mr POD]

mike325112 said:

I often wonder what would happen if they did have an accident, sitting that close the airbag would surely do more damage than it would prevent.

Okay with Euro spec 50 litre airbags but US spec 65 litre airbags will kill you if you are too close.

[kambites]

Lucie911 said:

...I found that my driving instructor and then IAM instructor both wouldn't accept it and made me sit 'so that your wrist can rest on the top of the steering wheel if you rested your arm on it'.

That's certainly what I've found to give best car control. I'd prefer to be a bit closer than that, but my legs are quite long for my height so I've never found a modern car that I can sit closer in. Most modern cars I can't even sit that close without having my knees somewhere around my ears.


I've never heard this stuff about airbags being dangerous if you sit close to the wheel? (Not that my car has an airbag anyway).

Edited by kambites on Monday 2nd March 19:53

[The Black Flash]

kambites said:

I've never heard this stuff about airbags being dangerous if you sit close to the wheel? (Not that my car has an airbag anyway).

Edited by kambites on Monday 2nd March 19:53

Me neither - I'm sure they wouldn't pass type approval if you could move the seat so close that it would be dangerous in a crash...

As for the "wrists on top of the wheel thing", ditto.
I used to follow Jackie Stewart's method, which is: hold the wheel at the top, with your forearm held vertically against the wheel surface. Your seat should then be adjusted so that your shoulders are touching the seat. That leaves you slightly closer than using the "wrists" method, and seems to be impossible in most cars anyway. The wrists method seems to work and be slightly more relaxed for normal driving.

[Lordbenny]

I recently raed an aticle about a Michelin high performane tyre test driver in Performance Car magazine. He sat closer to the wheel than most 80 year old women! It was easier for him to drift & oversteer etc in a 911 when he was sitting so close. If you look at sports car drivers they also sit very close to the wheel. Its all about leverage you know!

[Hitch78]

It's because they don't use the side mirrors or feel a need to have peripheral vision. Why sit back when you only feel the need to peer onto the road ahead?

[Evo]

Short arms

[Prof Beard]

Lordbenny said:

I recently raed an aticle about a Michelin high performane tyre test driver in Performance Car magazine. He sat closer to the wheel than most 80 year old women! It was easier for him to drift & oversteer etc in a 911 when he was sitting so close. If you look at sports car drivers they also sit very close to the wheel. Its all about leverage you know!

Indeed. I've just read an article written years ago about how the pre-war grand-prix drivers like Nuvolari sat very close to their (very big) steering wheels. It said it was because they wanted to be able to apply the maximum turning force to the wheel. (That would mean have the arms far more bent than the "wrists" distance - which is what I use by the way)

[flemke]

Zod said:

flemke said:

jellison said:

Nothing to do with height you see average height or tall women get out most of the time with the wheel MUCH closer than you would for a man of similar height.

It amazes me how you turn the wheel with the arms so bent.

I think they think they are closer therefor the THEY MUST be More in control.

Did not think on the airbag thing.

Maybe it is driver instructor lead?

It depends on what you mean by "so close".
Most drivers sit too far away for optimal efficiency and control, as it happens.

most male drivers, so many of whom seem to believe that straight arms allow best control of the wheel.

Stirling Moss always drove with straight arms. Since his retirement, he admitted that he had affected this style because, when he was starting to race, his favourite driver drove that way, and thus he copied it. He added that, after he had become accustomed to straight arms, he could never get out of the habit - even though he recognised that it was inferior.
Sometimes the cockpit of a single-seater will be so narrow that you can only steer with straight arms. In a sports or touring car, however, well-bent arms are the way to go.

[SarlechS]

i dont sit majorily close to the wheel but to some people it might look "too close"

i watched a vid on D.R. (Driver Republic) they pretty much said if you rested your palms ontop of the wheel you should have a slight bend in your arms. i find most guys sit too far back. you can't hustle a car around when your sitting too far back.

[Northern Munkee]

Prof Beard said:

Lordbenny said:

I recently raed an aticle about a Michelin high performane tyre test driver in Performance Car magazine. He sat closer to the wheel than most 80 year old women! It was easier for him to drift & oversteer etc in a 911 when he was sitting so close. If you look at sports car drivers they also sit very close to the wheel. Its all about leverage you know!

Indeed. I've just read an article written years ago about how the pre-war grand-prix drivers like Nuvolari sat very close to their (very big) steering wheels. It said it was because they wanted to be able to apply the maximum turning force to the wheel. (That would mean have the arms far more bent than the "wrists" distance - which is what I use by the way)

Surely the reason why Nuvolari sat so close to the dustbin lid sized steering wheel pre war was for the same reason t was dustbin lid sized, leverage, and a complete lack of power steering. Look at nascar, 500 miles with a little bit of lock all the time, tiring for 4 hours, big steering wheel, wheel/suspension/steering geometry, all designed to go quickly, not operate comfortably, as the car wouldn't be fast. Ever tried to steer a modern car broken down, with electrics off, its incredibly heavy. Modern racing cars need power steering due to the prodigous grip, produced by tyre and wheel geometry.

Coming back to the point, of women sitting close to the wheel, I think it is again about leverage, even with power steering, and to a degree a misplaced idea, trying to see the corners, which no one can. Poor spatial awareness. I also think that that position induces tension, in the body, which can't help the mind. I'm probably, after teaching swimming and a bit of skiing, going to be asked to teach my niece to drive, as neither of her parents fill anyone with confidence behind the wheel, they've both nearly passenged me to accidents, with me shouting 'car on the left, car on left, THERE'S A PARKED CAR...!', or 'bike, bike, BIKE!!' Anyway first thing I'll do is the wrist thing, mirrors, and I'm sure it will be a good habit, and a relaxed driving position, and inducing a relaxed state of mind, good driving, is about good observation, and anticipation, and if I can park using one finger turning on the wheel, I'm sure my niece, can with one or two hands.

As an observation on Yoofs competitive reclining, in their Corsas and saxos, with the mortar tube tail pipe, wearing a baseball cap (wearing hats in cars, why? another pet hate), just about able to look over the top of the door, so the remaining vision is obscured by the b pillar, I thought this was because no one had the heart to tell them 'You are NOT driving a sportscar, you are driving a shopping trolley!'. Low does not make it fast! Never did it in my XR2 and Pug 205GTIs, back in the day.

Edited by Northern Munkee on Tuesday 3rd March 00:25

[Zen.]

Depends what I'm driving, I need the seat right forward on the Tiv inorder to depress the cluth, other cars I have it further back, I remember having a Cavalier SRI as a company car and having to send it back as they wouldn't modify the pedals so that I could brake properly. I'm not just short in the leg, I have short arms as well, had to have the handle bars modified on a bike so I could reach.

[Northern Munkee]

Zen. said:

Depends what I'm driving, I need the seat right forward on the Tiv inorder to depress the cluth, other cars I have it further back, I remember having a Cavalier SRI as a company car and having to send it back as they wouldn't modify the pedals so that I could brake properly. I'm not just short in the leg, I have short arms as well, had to have the handle bars modified on a bike so I could reach.

It never ceases to amaze me how manufacturers cannot put sufficient adjustment into seats, and steering for rake or reach, that should cater for all sizes and lengths of limbs.

Tried Audi A5 at the weekend, a big coupe, okay lower roofline, & I'm 6 3, couldn't hold my head up straight, as the seat would got low enough, seat back to the stops, zero rear leg room, but the car has massive foot print, where has all that space gone?.

Toyed with S2000 & Elise steering fixed! And nearly had to be pulled out of the Elise, not very elegant. Boxsters were good, but I'm balding (would require hat, open top cars and hats!!!) and 40 (menoporsche cliche). Most adjustable seat I've found in sportsscar was 350Z just fit. I'm leaning towards an executive barge (5 series, A6 etc) to get a comfortable driving position in something approximating a performance car.

[kambites]

You can modify an Elise to make it more comfortable. Lots of people sell spacers to fit behind the wheel to move it closer to the driver (as you say, the ergonomics as they leave the factory are unadjustabe and pretty dire).

I've moved my steering wheel about 2 inches closer to me and it makes a world of difference - just makes reaching the indicator stalks rather tricky. Next modification is going to be lengthened, bent, indicator stalks.

If you struggle to get in and out, a snap-off steering wheel solves both problems at once as the bosses tend to be deeper and you can take the wheel off to get it out of the way when clambering in and out.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd March 08:12

[FNG]

The Black Flash said:

kambites said:

I've never heard this stuff about airbags being dangerous if you sit close to the wheel? (Not that my car has an airbag anyway).

Edited by kambites on Monday 2nd March 19:53

Me neither - I'm sure they wouldn't pass type approval if you could move the seat so close that it would be dangerous in a crash...

If you sit too close to the airbag and it deploys into your chest while you are moving towards it very fast, it can't fail to be dangerous. The distinction is that I was talking about people who are VERY close to the wheel, not those sitting in a normal position i.e. reclined slightly rearwards with arms slightly or moderately bent.

It's impossible to test and approve for every possible driver position. So tests are conducted on 5th, 50th, 95th percentile dummies in their respective nominal driving positions which are also used for crash simulations and to position the seatbelt mounting locations. The tests are also conducted on a number of out-of-position poses and locations and every effort is made not to exceed pre-set limits that would result in injury. But it's impossible to legislate for someone whose driving position is that far away from the norm or intent.

And if the seat was designed such that in no way could it ever be positioned so close that any person could ever be injured by the airbag, many many people wouldn't be physically able to reach the pedals. A certain amount of personal responsibility, forethought and common sense is still expected at the time of writing. Do not put your dog in this microwave has fortunately not pervaded every facet of modern life - yet.

Many of the people we're discussing on this thread are considered to be out-of-position; actually leaning forward in the seat, torso over-centre, arms bent way beyond a slight bend, forearm rather than wrist would be on top of the wheel.

They are not allowing enough room for the airbag cover to split and open enough to let the airbag out freely, let alone enough room for the bag to deploy as well. In that case the scenario I mentioned earlier is perfectly possible.

Manufacturers aren't being lazy or arrogant about their testing - they're complying with every legal requirement and plenty of non-stipulated standards too to ensure the airbag protects rather than harms - but if people are unthinking enough to not consider the effect of an airbag deployment into their chest 3" away, that's unfortunately beyond anyone's control but their own. Handbooks generally do recommend a safe driving position but again some people don't want to spend time reading those to familiarise themselves with their new vehicle either.

[kambites]

Meh, I'll stick to a car without an airbag.

[FNG]

kambites said:

Meh, I'll stick to a car without an airbag.

If you're not cuddling the steering wheel you've nothing to worry about.

That said, I'd rather be in my Elise or Locost with 6pt harness and a long distance to the wheel than my other cars - except when confronted with the back of a truck...

[jellison]

I am not saying I sit with my arms straight. I am not that tall but sit a reasonable distance from the wheel, with a reasonable bend in my arms.

Just as an example a women at my work I parked next to this morning (same hieght as me) had her seat rammed so far forward it was CRAZY - you could fit a baby Hippo behind her e seat and it was a 2+2 VW Convertible.

I think it is some basic insecurity thing - can't put my finger on it but god it is stupid.

[kambites]

I think I drive with my elbows bent at about 110 degrees - certainly much closer to 90 degrees than straight.

I can have my shoulders back against the seat and still bend my wrist at right angles so that it goes over the top of the wheel (if that makes sense)

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd March 10:28

[german tony]

It has a lot to do with the shoes they wear whilst driving. The closer they are to the pedals, the less strain the ankles have to take + the inability of some women to actually get their elbows beyond 90°.

Then there's the idea that with the seat further forward it's less far to the mirror to put the lippy etc on straight.

Add in the fear of not being able to see the front of the car + the "that's what all the other girls do so it must be ok" thing & there's the answer.

Which cars have steering columns that contract in an accident or has that idea been quietly forgotten?

Also, do smoe people in Britain insist upon driving their cars with their upper bodies almost out of their seats in order to get their heads in the middle of the car or is that juts a German thing?

[andyroo]

The position that worries me is leaning forward off of the seat with both hands at twelve o'clock with the shoulders mere inches away from the hands.

That, and the people behind who pull down the vanity mirror to check themselves out before their car has even stopped when in a queue. If you see someone check themselves in the mirror, you're guaranteed to see them them do it every time their car comes to a stop. But that's a whole other topic.