Bad British F1 Drivers
Discussion
coppice said:
If it were not for money nobody would be in F1...Even Saint Ayrton needed lots of that to get him into F1 (or F3 come to that ). JP's a decent guy - and he can drive . Let's not descend into schadenfreude every time a driver we don't like as much as some others bins it. Binning it goes with the territory.
This isn't quite true, although I appreciate that it largely is.Alain Prost didn't come from family money. Michael Schumacher's dad was hardly loaded, although being in the sport clearly provided some different routes. And Lewis Hamilton is hardly from mega-money. Alonso's parents were a mechanic and a department store worker. Though there are many great champions who were from wealthy families - Senna and Lauda spring to mind immediately.
If you have talent and dedication, you can manage with only a lot of money. If you have dedication, but average talent, you need LOTS AND LOTS of money. See Maldonado, Palmer Jnr, Stroll etc. etc.
Jez
Z3MCJez said:
But JP is not going to have as high as ceiling as Vandoorne. I *KNOW* that he won GP2, but it was his 4th attempt. He had 2 years not winning Formula Palmer Audi. He had 2 years not winning F2. He's not that good (in the context of F1 drivers).
Let's compare to the much maligned Marcus Ericsson. He won Formula BMW at the first attempt. He then won Japanese F3 at the first attempt. He then hit the wall with 5 seasons not really being a contender in GP2/GP2 Asia (although with some wins). \
Were it not for money, neither of these two would be in F1.
Jez
Its about being in the right car at the right time, all you can do is beat your team mate.I think JP won the GP2 championship at his first real chance. Just like Button won the F1 title with his first real chance. I suppose he's crap as well.....Let's compare to the much maligned Marcus Ericsson. He won Formula BMW at the first attempt. He then won Japanese F3 at the first attempt. He then hit the wall with 5 seasons not really being a contender in GP2/GP2 Asia (although with some wins). \
Were it not for money, neither of these two would be in F1.
Jez
If you think 'good' drivers don't bring funding you're on crack.
Senna bought money, Shumacher, Alonso, Button, Hamilton etc they all bring big bucks in through personal sponsors/support deals.
M-SportMatt said:
Its about being in the right car at the right time, all you can do is beat your team mate.I think JP won the GP2 championship at his first real chance. Just like Button won the F1 title with his first real chance. I suppose he's crap as well.....
Let's look at his GP2 record:2011 Arden - Kral 15pts, Palmer 0pts
2012 iSport - Ericsson 124pts, Palmer 78pts
2013 Carlin - Nasr 154pts, Palmer 119pts
2014 DAMS - Palmer 276pts, Richelmi 73pts.
1 out of 4. Nasr is now out of F1, Ericsson's hardly setting it alight.
Look, I'm now arguing for something I'm not really passionate about. I like Jolyon Palmer, but he's not *EVER* going to be a top half F1 driver. Which hardly marks him as dreadful.
As to Button. He is good in the realm of F1 drivers - much better than Jolyon. But was he any better than Coulthard, for instance. I'm not sure. He won a world title by being in the right place at the right time by beating his team mate that year in a car that was miles ahead for the first half of the season. I'm pretty sure that Palmer would not have beaten Rubens if he'd been in JB's shoes.
Z3MCJez said:
Let's look at his GP2 record:
2011 Arden - Kral 15pts, Palmer 0pts
2012 iSport - Ericsson 124pts, Palmer 78pts
2013 Carlin - Nasr 154pts, Palmer 119pts
2014 DAMS - Palmer 276pts, Richelmi 73pts.
1 out of 4. Nasr is now out of F1, Ericsson's hardly setting it alight.
Look, I'm now arguing for something I'm not really passionate about. I like Jolyon Palmer, but he's not *EVER* going to be a top half F1 driver. Which hardly marks him as dreadful.
As to Button. He is good in the realm of F1 drivers - much better than Jolyon. But was he any better than Coulthard, for instance. I'm not sure. He won a world title by being in the right place at the right time by beating his team mate that year in a car that was miles ahead for the first half of the season. I'm pretty sure that Palmer would not have beaten Rubens if he'd been in JB's shoes.
The thread is about Bad F1 drivers......JP is not a bad F1 driver by any stretch of the imagination.2011 Arden - Kral 15pts, Palmer 0pts
2012 iSport - Ericsson 124pts, Palmer 78pts
2013 Carlin - Nasr 154pts, Palmer 119pts
2014 DAMS - Palmer 276pts, Richelmi 73pts.
1 out of 4. Nasr is now out of F1, Ericsson's hardly setting it alight.
Look, I'm now arguing for something I'm not really passionate about. I like Jolyon Palmer, but he's not *EVER* going to be a top half F1 driver. Which hardly marks him as dreadful.
As to Button. He is good in the realm of F1 drivers - much better than Jolyon. But was he any better than Coulthard, for instance. I'm not sure. He won a world title by being in the right place at the right time by beating his team mate that year in a car that was miles ahead for the first half of the season. I'm pretty sure that Palmer would not have beaten Rubens if he'd been in JB's shoes.
As for JB, look back to his debut year and 2004 to see if he was any good or not. 2009 was not an easy win, they didn't have the best car for over half of the season, the RB was demonstrably quicker. JB was a class act in F1, not like Coulthard, MUCH better
M-SportMatt said:
The thread is about Bad F1 drivers......JP is not a bad F1 driver by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree. But you suggested we should base how good he was on his record against his team mates. Which wasn't that good. M-SportMatt said:
As for JB, look back to his debut year and 2004 to see if he was any good or not. 2009 was not an easy win, they didn't have the best car for over half of the season, the RB was demonstrably quicker. JB was a class act in F1, not like Coulthard, MUCH better
Re: 2009, Brawn won 6 of the first 7 races. JB beat Rubens in each of them and was on pole 4 times too. The only race Brawn didn't win in that run was China, when Red Bull finished 1/2 in the rain. By the time everyone had introduced double diffusers and got them working, the Brawn was not the best car. And indeed Jenson didn't win again (although Rubens did, twice). However, by the time they got to Britain for round 8 of 17, Button was 34 points (10 points for a win) ahead of Vettel. Vettel's retirements in Hungary and Spain (Europe) meant that Button's 2nd, behind Rubens in Italy and a number of consistent low points scores for 6/7/8th were all that it took. Jenson was helped by the fact that Webber, Hamilton and Raikkonen all had wins. Re: 2004, Jenson won the "Not in a Ferrari" title in a year where Ferrari were like Mercedes were last year with a Bridgestone tyre developed especially for them. To be fair, they may have won all but 3, but the Ferrari wasn't all conquering and Schumacher had to race hard a number of times before then gifting some wins to Rubens at the end of the season. Now, if I want to be difficult, I will note that it was Takuma Sato in the other BAR, a man who has made a career out of racing, for sure, but someone that we're not going to be saying is of the highest caliber.
Re: 2000, Jenson didn't manage to beat his (more experienced) team mate, Ralf Schumacher. No slouch, but not his brother either. His best result was a 4th where Ralf managed 3 3rds and 2 4ths. He was a rookie, I get it.
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
Z3MCJez said:
Re: 2009, Brawn won 6 of the first 7 races. JB beat Rubens in each of them and was on pole 4 times too. The only race Brawn didn't win in that run was China, when Red Bull finished 1/2 in the rain. By the time everyone had introduced double diffusers and got them working, the Brawn was not the best car. And indeed Jenson didn't win again (although Rubens did, twice). However, by the time they got to Britain for round 8 of 17, Button was 34 points (10 points for a win) ahead of Vettel. Vettel's retirements in Hungary and Spain (Europe) meant that Button's 2nd, behind Rubens in Italy and a number of consistent low points scores for 6/7/8th were all that it took. Jenson was helped by the fact that Webber, Hamilton and Raikkonen all had wins.
Re: 2004, Jenson won the "Not in a Ferrari" title in a year where Ferrari were like Mercedes were last year with a Bridgestone tyre developed especially for them. To be fair, they may have won all but 3, but the Ferrari wasn't all conquering and Schumacher had to race hard a number of times before then gifting some wins to Rubens at the end of the season. Now, if I want to be difficult, I will note that it was Takuma Sato in the other BAR, a man who has made a career out of racing, for sure, but someone that we're not going to be saying is of the highest caliber.
Re: 2000, Jenson didn't manage to beat his (more experienced) team mate, Ralf Schumacher. No slouch, but not his brother either. His best result was a 4th where Ralf managed 3 3rds and 2 4ths. He was a rookie, I get it.
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
Mostly a dull post, still JB didn't have the best car for over half of the season and JP still isn't a bad f1 driverRe: 2004, Jenson won the "Not in a Ferrari" title in a year where Ferrari were like Mercedes were last year with a Bridgestone tyre developed especially for them. To be fair, they may have won all but 3, but the Ferrari wasn't all conquering and Schumacher had to race hard a number of times before then gifting some wins to Rubens at the end of the season. Now, if I want to be difficult, I will note that it was Takuma Sato in the other BAR, a man who has made a career out of racing, for sure, but someone that we're not going to be saying is of the highest caliber.
Re: 2000, Jenson didn't manage to beat his (more experienced) team mate, Ralf Schumacher. No slouch, but not his brother either. His best result was a 4th where Ralf managed 3 3rds and 2 4ths. He was a rookie, I get it.
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
Ructions said:
Watched it tonight - excellent documentary.I almost feel sorry for Tommy.
Z3MCJez said:
As to Button. He is good in the realm of F1 drivers - much better than Jolyon. But was he any better than Coulthard, for instance. I'm not sure. He won a world title by being in the right place at the right time by beating his team mate that year in a car that was miles ahead for the first half of the season. .
Dr Z (I think it was) did an excellent picture thread round these parts about his career. JB had some brilliant drives in his back catalogue - more than the ones we all remember like Canada 11 - Germany 2000 for instance. Truly exceptional ones.
Certainly better than DC (as much as I like DC)
ETA: Y'er t'is
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it was Dr Z
Edited by Vocal Minority on Friday 24th March 22:29
Z3MCJez said:
Re: 2009, Brawn won 6 of the first 7 races. JB beat Rubens in each of them and was on pole 4 times too. The only race Brawn didn't win in that run was China, when Red Bull finished 1/2 in the rain. By
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
I don't really know what status superstardom connotes in any objective sense. Few would place JB in the top ten of all time greatest GP drivers - but few would exclude him from their top 25.
As for best car and beating teammate...I give you Jim Clark ,Jochen Rindt. Fittipaldi E, Lauda(v Regga),Prost (v Lauda) , Senna (v Prost) and so on ad nauseam.None of them too shabby really ,and all beat a team-mmate in the best car . It ain't a popularity contest , it is quite simple - most points- you win . How is irrelevant- and if you still aren't sure then consider the oft repeated call for a Surtees knighthood, despite the questionable tactics and lucky breakdowns of Mexico 64 . Deserved? Yes .Great driver ?Of course.
coppice said:
Few would place JB in the top ten of all time greatest GP drivers - but few would exclude him from their top 25.
Apart from making the most of having the best car in his championship year is Jenson's career really any better than those two drivers (adjusting for length of career, number of races in a season, reliability of cars etc etc etc)
Bradgate said:
I have been watching F1 sine the mid 80s, and I have never seen a bad British driver in the sport in that time.
Some were talented but unlucky (Davidson, McNish).
Some had long, successful careers but weren't quite World Champion class ( Coulthard, Brundle)
Some were solid, midfield performers (DiResta, Blundell, Irvine)
One was a 'might have been' (Herbert)
And some, of course, were superstars but none looked out of their depth or out of place.
Will Stevens or Max Chilton??Some were talented but unlucky (Davidson, McNish).
Some had long, successful careers but weren't quite World Champion class ( Coulthard, Brundle)
Some were solid, midfield performers (DiResta, Blundell, Irvine)
One was a 'might have been' (Herbert)
And some, of course, were superstars but none looked out of their depth or out of place.
andy97 said:
Eric Mc said:
I'm not sure the thread was to disparage anyone.
With a small number of exceptions, most drivers who have made it to F1 have not disgraced themselves.
.
How is a thread titled "bad British F1 drivers" not disparaging?With a small number of exceptions, most drivers who have made it to F1 have not disgraced themselves.
.
At the time, there were (and arguably still is) a significant number of drivers in F1 for reasons other than the ability to drive as competitively compared to many others that were/are available but do not get the opportunity. I was struggling to think of any British driver that might have fallen into this category.
To move the discussion on...
Professional motor racing (not just F1) has long relied on the ability of drivers to pay for their drives but F1 has evolved into the sport's pinnacle, representing the very best at all levels. The most visible aspect of this will always be the driver and those that drive in F1 should be there on merit and merit alone. Otherwise, it devalues the various ladder formulae and ultimately F1 itself.
If you have a good driver that has some budget, then the latter is a bonus but should not be the defining factor.
StevieBee said:
If you have a good driver that has some budget, then the latter is a bonus but should not be the defining factor.
The trouble is, motorsport is pissing expensive. And even racing teams from manufacturers only have limited budgets, because they are companies and they only provide so much payback.
No one CHOOSES Pedro Diniz.....that's the thing.
So you need to make everything MUCH cheaper or find someone to sub everyone out of the goodness of their heart.
Sorry to be an appalling pain in the arse about this....but SHOULD is a difficult word
coppice said:
I don't really know what status superstardom connotes in any objective sense. Few would place JB in the top ten of all time greatest GP drivers - but few would exclude him from their top 25.
As for best car and beating teammate...I give you Jim Clark ,Jochen Rindt. Fittipaldi E, Lauda(v Regga),Prost (v Lauda) , Senna (v Prost) and so on ad nauseam.None of them too shabby really ,and all beat a team-mmate in the best car . It ain't a popularity contest , it is quite simple - most points- you win . How is irrelevant- and if you still aren't sure then consider the oft repeated call for a Surtees knighthood, despite the questionable tactics and lucky breakdowns of Mexico 64 . Deserved? Yes .Great driver ?Of course.
I'm not sure about how time will treat Jensen. He has proximity on his side and give it a few years and I can see him being the modern day Alun Jones or Keke Rosberg. I doubt many have them in their top 25 drivers but both won WDCs once.
Jez
On their day both Alan and Keke were unbeatable. For sheer , head down , uncompromising aggression , AJ was peerless in 78- 81.Keke - I'm biased as not only did I watch him win the soaking Intl Trophy in 78 in a shed of a Theodore he also did the single most exciting lap I have ever seen when he put the Williams Honda on pole with a 161mph lap at S/stone in 85. Jones was a spent force in the Haas Lola in 86 and Keke never got on with the McLaren .
But when it really counted , both of these were at the top of the pile. Monaco 83 for Keke and just about any race in 80 for AJ
But when it really counted , both of these were at the top of the pile. Monaco 83 for Keke and just about any race in 80 for AJ
Kizmiaz said:
Well Palmer sticking it in the wall in Oz practice doesn't help his cause. I can see him gone before Silverstone.
It's not so much the crashing. EVeryone crashes. But he does far more than he should given his experience.It's the lack of pace relative to team mates. PLUS the big one being he blames the team all the bloody time.
Paul DiResta is the same. Max Chilton had a lot of that around him too! All are "bad"
Someone mentioned Will Stevens. He was better that Chilton IMO
SAying all that, there are a lot of "journeymen" in F1, who'll never achieve anything and should be limited to 2 seasons max.
Maybe a new rule. Score less than 20 points and you can't compete the next year. Drivers only, not team.
Or maybe a percentage thing to your team mate. Less than 40% of your team mate and you can't compete next year
Three 'nearly' men with decent racing pedigrees that didn't get the break to participate in an actual GP that Ralph Firman did 14 times in 2003;
Kelvin Burt - Test driver for Jordan and then Arrows,
Oliver Gavin - Test driver for Pacific GP.
Marc Hynes - Test driver for BAR and driver coach at Manor/Marussia - and he beat Jenson Button to the '99 British F3 championship!
Although OG has gone on to be a successful factory driver for Corvette in US sportcars.
Kelvin Burt - Test driver for Jordan and then Arrows,
Oliver Gavin - Test driver for Pacific GP.
Marc Hynes - Test driver for BAR and driver coach at Manor/Marussia - and he beat Jenson Button to the '99 British F3 championship!
Although OG has gone on to be a successful factory driver for Corvette in US sportcars.
I always wonder how far Terry Fullerton could have gone if he had moved out of karts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdoMj0cWlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdoMj0cWlI
Z3MCJez said:
M-SportMatt said:
The thread is about Bad F1 drivers......JP is not a bad F1 driver by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree. But you suggested we should base how good he was on his record against his team mates. Which wasn't that good. M-SportMatt said:
As for JB, look back to his debut year and 2004 to see if he was any good or not. 2009 was not an easy win, they didn't have the best car for over half of the season, the RB was demonstrably quicker. JB was a class act in F1, not like Coulthard, MUCH better
Re: 2009, Brawn won 6 of the first 7 races. JB beat Rubens in each of them and was on pole 4 times too. The only race Brawn didn't win in that run was China, when Red Bull finished 1/2 in the rain. By the time everyone had introduced double diffusers and got them working, the Brawn was not the best car. And indeed Jenson didn't win again (although Rubens did, twice). However, by the time they got to Britain for round 8 of 17, Button was 34 points (10 points for a win) ahead of Vettel. Vettel's retirements in Hungary and Spain (Europe) meant that Button's 2nd, behind Rubens in Italy and a number of consistent low points scores for 6/7/8th were all that it took. Jenson was helped by the fact that Webber, Hamilton and Raikkonen all had wins. Re: 2004, Jenson won the "Not in a Ferrari" title in a year where Ferrari were like Mercedes were last year with a Bridgestone tyre developed especially for them. To be fair, they may have won all but 3, but the Ferrari wasn't all conquering and Schumacher had to race hard a number of times before then gifting some wins to Rubens at the end of the season. Now, if I want to be difficult, I will note that it was Takuma Sato in the other BAR, a man who has made a career out of racing, for sure, but someone that we're not going to be saying is of the highest caliber.
Re: 2000, Jenson didn't manage to beat his (more experienced) team mate, Ralf Schumacher. No slouch, but not his brother either. His best result was a 4th where Ralf managed 3 3rds and 2 4ths. He was a rookie, I get it.
But nothing that I see here has Jensen as a superstar. He was a very good driver (consistently among the best 5 on the grid in any given year, which probably does mark him above Coulthard) who lucked into a Drivers Championship by beating his teammate in the best car.
Jez
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