Bad British F1 Drivers
Discussion
coppice said:
Dumfries was a purely random example, and a fine driver too. Other popular targets are Hill G (grafter, not naturally gifted ) , Hill D (right place right time ) , Palmer Jon ( 'arrogant' (so what ? )) , Palmer Jol (wrong dad) , Henton B (cocky ). Miles J (not cocky enough ) and so on.
Absolutely right, I was lucky enough to be around to watch Dumfries and Palmer in Group C in the late 80s, still remember taking a step backwards watching Dumfries' on a quali lap at Le Mans in the Sauber in 1987, frighteningly using bits of the track that no one else dared to use, similarly Palmer negotiating the old Woodcote chicane at Silverstone in the 956/962 Canon Porsche at impossible (other than Bellof) angles. Total commitment. Not a complete surprise that Dumfries" lucked into" an LM win with Jaguar the following year..."Failed" F1 drivers statistically but with more driving talent in their toenails than we, the average PH' ers , possess in total. "Bad British F1 drivers" - unequivocally no.
andy97 said:
The trouble is Eric that the whole premise of this thread is to disparage people for their efforts and thsts distasteful, particularly when, in fact, anyone that gets to F1, even if helped by a rich Dad, is still a pretty good driver.
Depends how you define good driver as much as a bad (British) driver.Going back to Dumfries as an example he was a decent, average, competent driver ie. worthy enough driver but nothing to stand out as a midfielder let alone a top team. I would say so that the worst Brits were certainly of that level compared to, well, some drivers from Japan eg. Taki Inoue and Yuji Ide who were slow and to some extent incompetent.
coppice said:
Dumfries was a purely random example, and a fine driver too. Other popular targets are Hill G (grafter, not naturally gifted ) , Hill D (right place right time )
Interesting point about the Hills - it reflects that people tend to prefer naturally talented to people who work hard for it - I'm not saying those with talent don't, however people I think prefer the idea of inate ability as their is something raw about getting in a car and just driving fast. It's a romantic notion.Drives who have to graft to drag it out of themselves don't have this, and therefore always suffer in popular comparison despite - result for result and race for race not being any worse a racing driver (admit that isn't in all instances)
Re: Damon I'd just observe that could be said of most champions!
Eric Mc said:
I was watching Mark Blundell on the Goodwood 75MM livestream over the weekend. Even peddling a fairly humble Escort RS2000 he showed an extra element of class and grit over the more traditional "gentlemen" historic racers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1ECE3oT-Z8&t=224ssays it all
moffspeed said:
"Failed" F1 drivers statistically but with more driving talent in their toenails than we, the average PH' ers , possess in total. "Bad British F1 drivers" - unequivocally no.
Personally I don't like the argument that a driver who made nothing of note in F1 is far more talented than the average person on the street. It's hard not to categorize drivers of a certain and indeed players in other sports because sport is pretty much a meritocracy where the cream of the generally rises to the top - and as we all know motorsport is much more fickle with pay drivers.The bad British drivers weren't bad in F1. They were competent but nothing of note. Certainly they were at the level of belonging in top level motorsport and managed to have success elsewhere - not just sportcars but Indycar if you go by the example Justin Wilson or Mark Blundell.
entropy said:
Personally I don't like the argument that a driver who made nothing of note in F1 is far more talented than the average person on the street.
This is sort of what I was referring to above. I presume you are referring to talented as in god given gifts? And I sort of agree.
Sort of.
When someone says the best driver of all time 'may be flipping burgers in Crudbucket, Alabama for all we know' - I know what they mean, but I can't wholly agree.
Because it conflates 'best' with most naturally gifted.
Now, *checks coast is clear from tommunster* - it maybe that I am a more gifted driver than Lance Stroll. It may not. However, am I better?
Quite simply no. OK he has funding, but he has a hell of a lot of experience and practice in driving these extraordinary machines. So at this date, if it were down to me and Lance Stroll in the best driver competition - would I win? No. Not by a very long chalk.
With the same preparation and effort a naturally talented driver will be one who is less so. However, a less natural driver can close the gap through extra application and be as good.
swisstoni said:
Coulthard was in some good machinery and did very little with it on the whole.
Seriously?!At worst he was young driver a bit out of his depth and jumped into a top team too soon and as a veteran who was in the wars too often whose time was coming.
He was a serial race winner and solid #2 driver in a top team with McLaren - dragging the team out of the doldrums with their first win since the Senna era.
Arguably not a WDC driver but certainly lesser drivers would kill to have a career like DC's.
I have been watching F1 sine the mid 80s, and I have never seen a bad British driver in the sport in that time.
Some were talented but unlucky (Davidson, McNish).
Some had long, successful careers but weren't quite World Champion class ( Coulthard, Brundle)
Some were solid, midfield performers (DiResta, Blundell, Irvine)
One was a 'might have been' (Herbert)
And some, of course, were superstars but none looked out of their depth or out of place.
Some were talented but unlucky (Davidson, McNish).
Some had long, successful careers but weren't quite World Champion class ( Coulthard, Brundle)
Some were solid, midfield performers (DiResta, Blundell, Irvine)
One was a 'might have been' (Herbert)
And some, of course, were superstars but none looked out of their depth or out of place.
Kizmiaz said:
Well Palmer sticking it in the wall in Oz practice doesn't help his cause. I can see him gone before Silverstone.
Well if Palmer is bad what the heck does that make Magnussen because palmer was better than him by the end of last year. Palmer also beat Vandoorne in GP2 so he's no slouch....
Really you some of you guys have no idea what a bad driver is....Riccardo Rosset was bad.....not people like JP
M-SportMatt said:
Kizmiaz said:
Well Palmer sticking it in the wall in Oz practice doesn't help his cause. I can see him gone before Silverstone.
Well if Palmer is bad what the heck does that make Magnussen because palmer was better than him by the end of last year. Palmer also beat Vandoorne in GP2 so he's no slouch....
Really you some of you guys have no idea what a bad driver is....Riccardo Rosset was bad.....not people like JP
Let's compare to the much maligned Marcus Ericsson. He won Formula BMW at the first attempt. He then won Japanese F3 at the first attempt. He then hit the wall with 5 seasons not really being a contender in GP2/GP2 Asia (although with some wins). \
Were it not for money, neither of these two would be in F1.
Jez
If it were not for money nobody would be in F1...Even Saint Ayrton needed lots of that to get him into F1 (or F3 come to that ). JP's a decent guy - and he can drive . Let's not descend into schadenfreude every time a driver we don't like as much as some others bins it. Binning it goes with the territory.
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