Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...
Discussion
cgt2 said:
CoolHands said:
The thing I always think of when the topic of Senna comes up, is what is he doing with his feet in the nsx video? For some reason he repeatedly stabs at the throttle mid corner etc. I can't understand it, or why he does it. Is he trying to break traction or unweight the car for some reason or what?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
This was something very unique he did. He would stacatto the throttle in a corner, ie to maintain speed all the way through a corner. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
Several engineers who worked with him have mentioned this characteristic. Another example of his skill as most drivers did not have the ability to do that and nor would they have maintained control the way he did if they tried. Gordon Murray once explained this in an interview and what an advantage it gave him in speed over his teammates.
It appears a few people on this thread still cannot make the distinction between his sheer skill as a driver and his ethics because he did some questionable things. I feel the two should be viewed seperately as we know he pushed it too far on occasion, but that takes nothing away from his talent, that is a temperament issue.
In terms of sublime talent and unique ability to drive he remains the greatest and this was another example of that.
With reference to that Autosport table linked to earlier - I really do think both Clark and Stewart were much better than Senna and Schumacher. Wherever you'd want to put them in the rankings, I really wouldn't put Senna or Schumacher ahead of Clark and Stewart.
Evangelion said:
I have two opinions to offer.
The first is my own: For what he did at Suzuka in 1990, he should never have been allowed within a mile of a racing car ever again. He could have caused any number of fatalities.
The second is of a friend who, watching an early-90s F1 race, said, "The way that Senna drives, he's obviously going to kill somebody sooner or later."
My sentiments completely.The first is my own: For what he did at Suzuka in 1990, he should never have been allowed within a mile of a racing car ever again. He could have caused any number of fatalities.
The second is of a friend who, watching an early-90s F1 race, said, "The way that Senna drives, he's obviously going to kill somebody sooner or later."
KaraK said:
He was clearly a phenomenally talented racing driver, in some ways he just had that extra notch on the dial that the majority of even superbly talented drivers don't. And there's plenty to suggest he was, at heart, a decent human being as well, look at all his charity work. That doesn't mean he was perfect though, like all humans he had his flaws both on and off track - I found his role in the whole Suzuka debacle with Prost to be disgusting to be honest and I can't deny that it lowered my opinion of him significantly.
Pondering the subject now I have to say that there is a strikingly similarity between his flaws and those of Schumacher, who in my opinion was another who's talent dial went up to eleven so maybe it's something that comes with the territory?
Yes, I think you've covered it perfectly in both paragraphs. I'd add that Senna was wealthy enough to have the best equipment and drive for the best teams when coming up through the ranks. I saw him in the lower formulae and he was always very quick though. Pondering the subject now I have to say that there is a strikingly similarity between his flaws and those of Schumacher, who in my opinion was another who's talent dial went up to eleven so maybe it's something that comes with the territory?
To me, Senna and Schumacher were very similar. I am too young to have watched Senna race (started watching F1 at the tender age of 7 in 1995) but I've been watching as many of his races as I can on the Sky F1 channel - right now doing a 'Senna week' and he drove just like Michael did. Perhaps with Michael having slightly less raw speed but more tactical prowess.
heebeegeetee said:
At a very wet British GP one year, which he won, we could clearly hear him doing that through the old Club corner - 'wah-wah-wah-wah', when you couldn't actually see the car for the spray (I guess they wouldn't run it now). Rather unique and everyone said it was the wrong method but it clearly worked for him.
With reference to that Autosport table linked to earlier - I really do think both Clark and Stewart were much better than Senna and Schumacher. Wherever you'd want to put them in the rankings, I really wouldn't put Senna or Schumacher ahead of Clark and Stewart.
I saw both Clark and Sewart race. I saw Clark in lower formulae and in Saloons. He was just different from any other driver I've seen. He was in a Ford Galaxy at Brands one year, racing against MII Jags and other such machinery. There were two or three other large 7-litre Fords. It was torrential rain. We were being sprayed by the cars as they went past. The commentator reckoned that the rain, being a great leveler, would give the 3.8 Jags a chance against the ill-handling American tinware. With reference to that Autosport table linked to earlier - I really do think both Clark and Stewart were much better than Senna and Schumacher. Wherever you'd want to put them in the rankings, I really wouldn't put Senna or Schumacher ahead of Clark and Stewart.
We were at Clearways. We saw Clark appear from the GP circuit, come into the corner in a massive slide, water streaming off the back. Then Clark drove along the top straight, round Paddock and was on the climb up to Druids when the next car appeared. Later on he slowed as, I feel, he was getting bored.
I've always wondered what he would do in the current circus, but we'll never know. A privilege to have seen him drive.
One thing that we all noticed on the slow down lap whenever we saw Clark was that he would hang the back end of his car out at corners. A few years ago I was told he did this to ensure the photographers got a good photograph.
Nice touch.
I must say I envy you for having seen Clark race, Derek. He was sadly gone before I was born, but everything I have seen and read of him has amazed me, he seemed to have an ‘other-worldly’ talent like Senna did, but without Senna’s dark side.
It would be wonderful if we could somehow see the greats of different eras in the machinery of other times. Imagine being able to see Fangio and Moss in the cars of today, or Hamilton and Alonso in Maserati 250F’s? My feeling is that the best in each era would still be the best.
It would be wonderful if we could somehow see the greats of different eras in the machinery of other times. Imagine being able to see Fangio and Moss in the cars of today, or Hamilton and Alonso in Maserati 250F’s? My feeling is that the best in each era would still be the best.
heebeegeetee said:
cgt2 said:
CoolHands said:
The thing I always think of when the topic of Senna comes up, is what is he doing with his feet in the nsx video? For some reason he repeatedly stabs at the throttle mid corner etc. I can't understand it, or why he does it. Is he trying to break traction or unweight the car for some reason or what?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
This was something very unique he did. He would stacatto the throttle in a corner, ie to maintain speed all the way through a corner. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
Several engineers who worked with him have mentioned this characteristic. Another example of his skill as most drivers did not have the ability to do that and nor would they have maintained control the way he did if they tried. Gordon Murray once explained this in an interview and what an advantage it gave him in speed over his teammates.
It appears a few people on this thread still cannot make the distinction between his sheer skill as a driver and his ethics because he did some questionable things. I feel the two should be viewed seperately as we know he pushed it too far on occasion, but that takes nothing away from his talent, that is a temperament issue.
In terms of sublime talent and unique ability to drive he remains the greatest and this was another example of that.
With reference to that Autosport table linked to earlier - I really do think both Clark and Stewart were much better than Senna and Schumacher. Wherever you'd want to put them in the rankings, I really wouldn't put Senna or Schumacher ahead of Clark and Stewart.
I saw Senna race in everything from FF1600 to F1 and in 40odd years of trackside viewing he stands head and shoulders better than anybody else I have seen and that was apparent from his earliest days,. But I don't really care for the beatification of Ayrton thing - he was a sublimely gifted driver, if deeply flawed when it came to some of his behaviour, but his death seemed to elevate his status to near sainthood in the eyes of many- most of whom I suspect had never lived through the death of a top driver before , unlike we older farts. Se also Saint Gilles...
You can clearly hear his throttle technique in the onboard video around monaco - especially around the hairpins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auXfAHHNSFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auXfAHHNSFo
Why can't we just enjoy having people like Senna and Clark around when they were here?
Why the opinions presented as fact?
Sure, Senna may have been 'wrong' with some of the things he did, but he was human.
The fact we are still talking about him says it all.
Long live the memory of those people who influenced us, either dead or alive.
Nobody remembers a loser...
Why the opinions presented as fact?
Sure, Senna may have been 'wrong' with some of the things he did, but he was human.
The fact we are still talking about him says it all.
Long live the memory of those people who influenced us, either dead or alive.
Nobody remembers a loser...
I thought that there was a lovely series of articles on Chris Amon in the new edition of Motor Sport that arrived today.
Never won a World Championship
Never even won a World Championship F1 race
By your definition, he was a "loser".
But he does seem to be remembered.
Winning isn't everything. How you win - and indeed, how you lose, can also be just as important.
Never won a World Championship
Never even won a World Championship F1 race
By your definition, he was a "loser".
But he does seem to be remembered.
Winning isn't everything. How you win - and indeed, how you lose, can also be just as important.
Absolutely - and how many Grands Prix would Amon have won if he'd stayed with Ferrari ? Amon and Lauda- that would have been some team . I never buy the binary winner/loser thing anyway - drivers can be hugely memorable even if they didn't win as much as was expected of them at the beginning of their career. Bad choices and bad luck rather than lack of talent.Peterson a classic example. And who would you rather be stuck in a lift with - Chris Amon or Nigel Mansell...?
Eric Mc said:
Winning isn't everything.
Ah - the mating call of the loser 
(I agree entirely, nothing amuses me more than a tubby fatso that spends his afternoon in the pub insinuating a particular athlete is somehow beneath them because they finished second.
I don't think any of my preferred sportsmen are the best at what they do - I just like them as people (to the extent you can say that without actually knowing them)
toppstuff said:
As a long time fan of F1, I must confess to being a bit puzzled by the deifying of Ayrton Senna.
To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
He is a driver who divides/mixed opinions and rightly so. It's hard not to ignore the bad sideTo me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
IMHO he is rightly hero worshipped for just being exciting to watch and the purity of driving to the limit. No different to other drivers who are hero worshipped for the same reasons eg. Gilles an obvious candidate.
But yeah, hero worship can be an uncomfortable thing because driving and racing to the limits means you're an accident waiting to happen. IMO in that regard I put Stefan Bellof worse than Senna. Like Senna he is deified for driving to the limits but Bellof knew no limits whatsoever and a reckless driver IMO.
The really cringey stuff is when you see a car bonnet covered in a mural depicting somebody intended to be Colin McRae - but actually looking like an extra from Wallace and Gromit. Personally I wouldn't hero worship somebody who killed an adult and two kids (including his own son )whilst showing off in a helicopter.....
coppice said:
... Personally I wouldn't hero worship somebody who killed an adult and two kids (including his own son )whilst showing off in a helicopter ,,,
But people will quite happily hero worship somebody who deliberately took another driver out, prepared to risk any number of deaths to stop him winning a championship.Evangelion said:
But people will quite happily hero worship somebody who deliberately took another driver out, prepared to risk any number of deaths to stop him winning a championship.
Senna wanted pole to be on the racing line despite having no concerns in previous years. The race stewards were willing to grant this but Balestre overruled them so pole was on the dirty side and again Senna made a bad start.Post race Ron Dennis defended Senna by making the point that Prost left the door open.
A year later Senna admitted it was a deliberate act in revenge for Prost taking him out in '89.
I don't fully agree with it but there fan boys out there who do.
At least Senna admitted his actions cf. Schumi who never has.
Well , fan boys tend to have tunnel vision ,spend too much time watching re-runs on TV and know very little about motor sport outside F1 .If they started to appreciate the wider sport rather than reduce it to hero worship they might grow up a bit and possibly even get a girlfriend...
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