Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...
Discussion
I wouldn't disagree- watching him over the years there was something 'other ' about him, He had immense charisma , something I had never seen the like of before or since. But flawed yes. I reserve my unequivocal admiration for only one driver, the smartest of them all -Niki Lauda.The bravest man I have ever seen - and also the best gearchanger - in the happy days when changing gear involved skill.
coppice said:
I wouldn't disagree- watching him over the years there was something 'other ' about him, He had immense charisma , something I had never seen the like of before or since. But flawed yes. I reserve my unequivocal admiration for only one driver, the smartest of them all -Niki Lauda.The bravest man I have ever seen - and also the best gearchanger - in the happy days when changing gear involved skill.
John, there's still a lot of skill required for changing gear these days. Remembering which finger to use. coppice said:
I wouldn't disagree- watching him over the years there was something 'other ' about him, He had immense charisma , something I had never seen the like of before or since. But flawed yes. I reserve my unequivocal admiration for only one driver, the smartest of them all -Niki Lauda.The bravest man I have ever seen - and also the best gearchanger - in the happy days when changing gear involved skill.
Lauda missed out a bit on the special aura of other greats, but brave ? Supremely.
As a boy I watched Mansell win the British Grand Prix and supported him in that championship as a compatriot. I respected Senna as fast and exciting, but the more I look back on how Senna acted and what he said the more it seems he was actually right most of the time even under intense criticism.
Senna often got a pole position in not always the most competetive car, was always exciting and eloquent.
Some of the incidents he was criticised for also look innocent now in comparison with more recent F1, and his skill in wet weather is I think legendary.
Senna often got a pole position in not always the most competetive car, was always exciting and eloquent.
Some of the incidents he was criticised for also look innocent now in comparison with more recent F1, and his skill in wet weather is I think legendary.
I grew up watching F1 from the mid 80's onwards....
Senna certainly had an aura about him. His only 'average' season for me was 87- though the 99T Lotus was not much of a car in fairness.
Prost was certainly more astute, better at setting up the car & only ever seemed to go as fast as needed whilst they were teammates. Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet. His driving continued to improve throughout his career I thought.
I was always a huge Prost fan- Sennas tactics & win at all costs attitude were dangerous at times but as for him being overrated where driving was concerned- No. Putting the FW16 Williams on pole for each of the 3 races he competed in for them was a special achievement- especially as the Benetton wasn't running legally....
He was a flawed genius
Senna certainly had an aura about him. His only 'average' season for me was 87- though the 99T Lotus was not much of a car in fairness.
Prost was certainly more astute, better at setting up the car & only ever seemed to go as fast as needed whilst they were teammates. Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet. His driving continued to improve throughout his career I thought.
I was always a huge Prost fan- Sennas tactics & win at all costs attitude were dangerous at times but as for him being overrated where driving was concerned- No. Putting the FW16 Williams on pole for each of the 3 races he competed in for them was a special achievement- especially as the Benetton wasn't running legally....
He was a flawed genius
chrismc1977 said:
I grew up watching F1 from the mid 80's onwards....
Senna certainly had an aura about him. His only 'average' season for me was 87- though the 99T Lotus was not much of a car in fairness.
Prost was certainly more astute, better at setting up the car & only ever seemed to go as fast as needed whilst they were teammates. Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet. His driving continued to improve throughout his career I thought.
I was always a huge Prost fan- Sennas tactics & win at all costs attitude were dangerous at times but as for him being overrated where driving was concerned- No. Putting the FW16 Williams on pole for each of the 3 races he competed in for them was a special achievement- especially as the Benetton wasn't running legally....
He was a flawed genius
Pretty much my take, too.Senna certainly had an aura about him. His only 'average' season for me was 87- though the 99T Lotus was not much of a car in fairness.
Prost was certainly more astute, better at setting up the car & only ever seemed to go as fast as needed whilst they were teammates. Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet. His driving continued to improve throughout his career I thought.
I was always a huge Prost fan- Sennas tactics & win at all costs attitude were dangerous at times but as for him being overrated where driving was concerned- No. Putting the FW16 Williams on pole for each of the 3 races he competed in for them was a special achievement- especially as the Benetton wasn't running legally....
He was a flawed genius
whatxd said:
Thank goodness the western legal system doesn't work this way.
Want a bet?In fact, there is NO Western legal system. Have you ever compared how Itlian courts operate work compared to (say) English courts?
Even the UK has differing legal systems.
Scotland in particular can actually arrive at a verdict based on lack of evidence.
Eric Mc said:
Want a bet?
In fact, there is NO Western legal system. Have you ever compared how Itlian courts operate work compared to (say) English courts?
Even the UK has differing legal systems.
Scotland in particular can actually arrive at a verdict based on lack of evidence.
that's interesting but it's a bit too late to get Senna in court.In fact, there is NO Western legal system. Have you ever compared how Itlian courts operate work compared to (say) English courts?
Even the UK has differing legal systems.
Scotland in particular can actually arrive at a verdict based on lack of evidence.
It seems to me that when a sportsman/artist etc. dies then something strange happens. It almost becomes taboo to criticise, and seemingly everything done or touched by them is elevated, often into slightly daft levels of legend.
If he was in the paddock today, would he stand out amongst the rest? what could he achieve with a duff car? Could he break physics and man-handle the maclaren (for example) onto the podium perhaps?
Edited by Catatafish on Thursday 22 September 13:58
Eric Mc said:
Want a bet?
In fact, there is NO Western legal system. Have you ever compared how Itlian courts operate work compared to (say) English courts?
Even the UK has differing legal systems.
Scotland in particular can actually arrive at a verdict based on lack of evidence.
I forgot that in the UK and USA, everyone is guilty until proven innocent and that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence.In fact, there is NO Western legal system. Have you ever compared how Itlian courts operate work compared to (say) English courts?
Even the UK has differing legal systems.
Scotland in particular can actually arrive at a verdict based on lack of evidence.
In the same way that people accuse Schumacher of using an illegal Benetton in 94 when there's no evidence that electronics were used or an advantage was gained, I accuse you of being the b
d who crashed into my wife's beloved Beetle the other day and pissed off without doing the decent thing.Lack of evidence for my claim is not enough to prove your innocence and I want your insurance details before I take this next level!
In all seriousness, this is derailing the thread and I won't be replying to anything else on this tangent.
whatxd said:
Not this st again. Nothing was ever proved and for every argument for, there's an argument against. Stop feeding the perpetual myth and let it go.
Apologies if it his hits a nerve...t again. Nothing was ever proved and for every argument for, there's an argument against. Stop feeding the perpetual myth and let it go.I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Senna was lobbying Williams to protest the Benetton?. I'm sure Prost has alluded to it in interviews about their new 'friendship' before Sennas passing about their phone conversations. Senna was pretty disenchanted.
Wasn't launch &/or traction control software hidden within another software menu too? Then there was the Fuel rig tampering....no smoke without fire??
It's not personal against anyone- but if someone of Senna's calibre had his suspicions it wasn't a level playing field- in my eyes he was in a pretty good position to make that assessment....
In any case you missed my point. No matter how 'good' the B194 was, the FW16 was a very difficult car early season- yet Senna still put it on Pole each time....
Edited by chrismc1977 on Thursday 22 September 15:19
chrismc1977 said:
Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet.
I think this just highlights some of the myths that do tend to get enhanced over time and especially with a death. Sure he had some great races in the wet but you'll find examples where he was flawed as any other. London424 said:
chrismc1977 said:
Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet.
I think this just highlights some of the myths that do tend to get enhanced over time and especially with a death. Sure he had some great races in the wet but you'll find examples where he was flawed as any other. Really?
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/who-was...
micky g said:
London424 said:
chrismc1977 said:
Senna just had raw speed though & was absolutely untouchable in the wet.
I think this just highlights some of the myths that do tend to get enhanced over time and especially with a death. Sure he had some great races in the wet but you'll find examples where he was flawed as any other. Really?
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/who-was...
Surely his wet weather drives highlighted his skill?- estoril 85, silverstone 88, hockenheim 88, spa 89...absolute class of the field. Nothing mythical
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