Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...
Discussion
footsoldier said:
Like I said...ask those who understand best...
http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
Doesn't mean he was at all flawless, but having flaws (or dying early) doesn't make him overrated either.
The quote says "Genius or thug?", excluding the option that perhaps he was both.http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
Doesn't mean he was at all flawless, but having flaws (or dying early) doesn't make him overrated either.
Just my two pence, however why do people constantly lament all of these type of drivers?
I see it on Facebook all the time with constant hand wringing and tales of how wonderful they were.
At the end of the day they are dead and no amount of praise or idolization will ever bring them back, ever.
I recently saw an article about Colin McrRae saying how amazing he was, yes that may be true however.....
shame he wasn't a better pilot!
So to sum up............ THEY ARE DEAD, GET OVER IT, MOVE ON!
HTH
I see it on Facebook all the time with constant hand wringing and tales of how wonderful they were.
At the end of the day they are dead and no amount of praise or idolization will ever bring them back, ever.
I recently saw an article about Colin McrRae saying how amazing he was, yes that may be true however.....
shame he wasn't a better pilot!
So to sum up............ THEY ARE DEAD, GET OVER IT, MOVE ON!
HTH
Smollet said:
He was a thug on the track and his behaviour led to a lowering of driving standards in F1. He should've been stripped of his title and banned from F1 for what he did to Prost to win it. I'm of the opinion had that happened Schumacher may well have adopted a different style. Senna had such an ability he didn't need to resort to the downright dangerous to win. I shall now wait for the abuse to follow from his fans who think he was God on wheels and can see no wrong in the way he drove.
No abuse, but you seem to have forgotten Suzuka '89& that's the point really, Senna was purely a reactionary character & reacting to what he perceived to be injustices.
I'd argue Schumi was a completely different kind of animal altogether
angrymoby said:
No abuse, but you seem to have forgotten Suzuka '89
& that's the point really, Senna was purely a reactionary character & reacting to what he perceived to be injustices.
I'd argue Schumi was a completely different kind of animal altogether
I haven't forgotten that race at all. What Prost did pales in comparison to Senna's taking him out a year later. He could've killed not only himself but Prost and arguably spectators as well. What Prost did was nothing like that at all. Senna was blessed with a fantastic ability yet at times resorted to some pretty despicable driving. & that's the point really, Senna was purely a reactionary character & reacting to what he perceived to be injustices.
I'd argue Schumi was a completely different kind of animal altogether
The comparison between Schumacher and Senna is odd. They were different drivers in the main. There were similarities; both wanting to be the only driver in a team as such, but there are few others.
Senna's move on Prost was, according to his justification, entirely legal. He reckoned that Prost had the option to let him through. Had Prost done so it is probable that Senna would have not made the corner. Given that he said what he was going to do at the first corner before the race, it seemed a bit strange from Prost. I was in a group of fans at the time and the immediate response from everyone was that it was Prost's mistake. If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost.
Senna's abilities were tremendous and this showed in his driving of less favoured cars. To see him driving the McLaren when it was 2 seconds a lap slower in the hands of his team mate was worth the high charges at Silverstone.
Senna appeared to me to have a phenomenal conceit. All drivers reckon they are great but his delusions went further. He thought it was his right, almost his obligation, to win. Strange guy. He once said that his god watched over him.
Schumacher, on the other hand, drove into a few cars in his time, and cheated in a number of ways. Would Senna have agreed to having the safety device removed from the fuel rig for that extra second in a pit stop? I think he would not if it meant getting three seconds a race advantage. If his major competitors were doing it he'd have no compunction.
Senna had his own rules and had the conceit to believe that they were the best.
Obviously I don't think my estimation of Senna's abilities is wrong. But I'll accept it as a possibility. So Senna was one of the best racers I've ever seen in F1 in 50 years following the sport. Top 5. So it is hard to overrate someone who was that good.
Senna's move on Prost was, according to his justification, entirely legal. He reckoned that Prost had the option to let him through. Had Prost done so it is probable that Senna would have not made the corner. Given that he said what he was going to do at the first corner before the race, it seemed a bit strange from Prost. I was in a group of fans at the time and the immediate response from everyone was that it was Prost's mistake. If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost.
Senna's abilities were tremendous and this showed in his driving of less favoured cars. To see him driving the McLaren when it was 2 seconds a lap slower in the hands of his team mate was worth the high charges at Silverstone.
Senna appeared to me to have a phenomenal conceit. All drivers reckon they are great but his delusions went further. He thought it was his right, almost his obligation, to win. Strange guy. He once said that his god watched over him.
Schumacher, on the other hand, drove into a few cars in his time, and cheated in a number of ways. Would Senna have agreed to having the safety device removed from the fuel rig for that extra second in a pit stop? I think he would not if it meant getting three seconds a race advantage. If his major competitors were doing it he'd have no compunction.
Senna had his own rules and had the conceit to believe that they were the best.
Obviously I don't think my estimation of Senna's abilities is wrong. But I'll accept it as a possibility. So Senna was one of the best racers I've ever seen in F1 in 50 years following the sport. Top 5. So it is hard to overrate someone who was that good.
I have been watching F1 now for the best part of 45 years. I had tremendous respect for Jackie Stewart, then James Hunt especially in that 76 season being a Brit and winning the WDC.
The along came Gilles Villeneuve,,,,,,,,, my word, what a driver.
When watching him race I always through he was capable of doing something extraordinary, which indeed he did on many occasions.
After his sad demise, Alan Jones impressed me then Keke Rosberg with his tremendous car control.
Prost I admired, but then along same Senna. Again another who I thought was able to do amazing things on a race track that others could not, an incredible talent the like I have not seen since.
Yes, he went too far at times, although that collision with Prost in 90 was, IMO a form or {extreme to say the least!!} pay back for Prost deliberately driving into him in 89.
Donnington 93 has been mentioned many times, he made the others look like amateurs in that race.
I watched him die on 1st May 94, after that I lost interest in F1 for a while, not until a certain Mr Button came along who I have been a fan of since 2000
So, No, Ayrton was certainly not overrated, he was that good. We might never see that amount of natural ability again, although I hope we do.
The along came Gilles Villeneuve,,,,,,,,, my word, what a driver.
When watching him race I always through he was capable of doing something extraordinary, which indeed he did on many occasions.
After his sad demise, Alan Jones impressed me then Keke Rosberg with his tremendous car control.
Prost I admired, but then along same Senna. Again another who I thought was able to do amazing things on a race track that others could not, an incredible talent the like I have not seen since.
Yes, he went too far at times, although that collision with Prost in 90 was, IMO a form or {extreme to say the least!!} pay back for Prost deliberately driving into him in 89.
Donnington 93 has been mentioned many times, he made the others look like amateurs in that race.
I watched him die on 1st May 94, after that I lost interest in F1 for a while, not until a certain Mr Button came along who I have been a fan of since 2000
So, No, Ayrton was certainly not overrated, he was that good. We might never see that amount of natural ability again, although I hope we do.
Mark A S said:
I have been watching F1 now for the best part of 45 years. I had tremendous respect for Jackie Stewart, then James Hunt especially in that 76 season being a Brit and winning the WDC.
The along came Gilles Villeneuve,,,,,,,,, my word, what a driver.
When watching him race I always through he was capable of doing something extraordinary, which indeed he did on many occasions.
After his sad demise, Alan Jones impressed me then Keke Rosberg with his tremendous car control.
Prost I admired, but then along same Senna. Again another who I thought was able to do amazing things on a race track that others could not, an incredible talent the like I have not seen since.
Yes, he went too far at times, although that collision with Prost in 90 was, IMO a form or {extreme to say the least!!} pay back for Prost deliberately driving into him in 89.
Donnington 93 has been mentioned many times, he made the others look like amateurs in that race.
I watched him die on 1st May 94, after that I lost interest in F1 for a while, not until a certain Mr Button came along who I have been a fan of since 2000
So, No, Ayrton was certainly not overrated, he was that good. We might never see that amount of natural ability again, although I hope we do.
The subsequent race to Donnington was even better I think. It was Canada and on the first two laps he went from 8th to second or third. This in the dry. The McLaren was superb in the wet but in the dry it was inferior to the Ferrari, Williams and Benetton. (As a McL fan, this comes hard to admit.) So his move from 8th, against superior machinery, was magic.The along came Gilles Villeneuve,,,,,,,,, my word, what a driver.
When watching him race I always through he was capable of doing something extraordinary, which indeed he did on many occasions.
After his sad demise, Alan Jones impressed me then Keke Rosberg with his tremendous car control.
Prost I admired, but then along same Senna. Again another who I thought was able to do amazing things on a race track that others could not, an incredible talent the like I have not seen since.
Yes, he went too far at times, although that collision with Prost in 90 was, IMO a form or {extreme to say the least!!} pay back for Prost deliberately driving into him in 89.
Donnington 93 has been mentioned many times, he made the others look like amateurs in that race.
I watched him die on 1st May 94, after that I lost interest in F1 for a while, not until a certain Mr Button came along who I have been a fan of since 2000
So, No, Ayrton was certainly not overrated, he was that good. We might never see that amount of natural ability again, although I hope we do.
Derek Smith said:
The comparison between Schumacher and Senna is odd. They were different drivers in the main. There were similarities; both wanting to be the only driver in a team as such, but there are few others.
Senna's move on Prost was, according to his justification, entirely legal. He reckoned that Prost had the option to let him through. Had Prost done so it is probable that Senna would have not made the corner. Given that he said what he was going to do at the first corner before the race, it seemed a bit strange from Prost. I was in a group of fans at the time and the immediate response from everyone was that it was Prost's mistake. If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost.
Senna's abilities were tremendous and this showed in his driving of less favoured cars. To see him driving the McLaren when it was 2 seconds a lap slower in the hands of his team mate was worth the high charges at Silverstone.
Senna appeared to me to have a phenomenal conceit. All drivers reckon they are great but his delusions went further. He thought it was his right, almost his obligation, to win. Strange guy. He once said that his god watched over him.
Schumacher, on the other hand, drove into a few cars in his time, and cheated in a number of ways. Would Senna have agreed to having the safety device removed from the fuel rig for that extra second in a pit stop? I think he would not if it meant getting three seconds a race advantage. If his major competitors were doing it he'd have no compunction.
Senna had his own rules and had the conceit to believe that they were the best.
Obviously I don't think my estimation of Senna's abilities is wrong. But I'll accept it as a possibility. So Senna was one of the best racers I've ever seen in F1 in 50 years following the sport. Top 5. So it is hard to overrate someone who was that good.
From reading that, it's very clear that you're wearing McLaren blinkers and have most likely been manipulated by Senna propaganda. This line is particularly deluded:Senna's move on Prost was, according to his justification, entirely legal. He reckoned that Prost had the option to let him through. Had Prost done so it is probable that Senna would have not made the corner. Given that he said what he was going to do at the first corner before the race, it seemed a bit strange from Prost. I was in a group of fans at the time and the immediate response from everyone was that it was Prost's mistake. If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost.
Senna's abilities were tremendous and this showed in his driving of less favoured cars. To see him driving the McLaren when it was 2 seconds a lap slower in the hands of his team mate was worth the high charges at Silverstone.
Senna appeared to me to have a phenomenal conceit. All drivers reckon they are great but his delusions went further. He thought it was his right, almost his obligation, to win. Strange guy. He once said that his god watched over him.
Schumacher, on the other hand, drove into a few cars in his time, and cheated in a number of ways. Would Senna have agreed to having the safety device removed from the fuel rig for that extra second in a pit stop? I think he would not if it meant getting three seconds a race advantage. If his major competitors were doing it he'd have no compunction.
Senna had his own rules and had the conceit to believe that they were the best.
Obviously I don't think my estimation of Senna's abilities is wrong. But I'll accept it as a possibility. So Senna was one of the best racers I've ever seen in F1 in 50 years following the sport. Top 5. So it is hard to overrate someone who was that good.
Derek Smith said:
If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost
So Prost's mindset going into a title deciding race is that he needs to get out of the way of Senna because he's going to go into him like a snowplough? Thank goodness that never caught on!whatxd said:
Derek Smith said:
If we knew that Senna was going for a hail Mary then you'd think someone would have told Prost
So Prost's mindset going into a title deciding race is that he needs to get out of the way of Senna because he's going to go into him like a snowplough? Thank goodness that never caught on!I did not suggest that it was right, moral or good racing. I just pointed out that Prost could have rescued the race and possibly the WDC.
There is no doubt in my mind that Senna was one of the best drivers I've seen in F1. I wouldn't put him at the top. The McLaren dig was silly. Look at the 93 Canadian GP. Senna, in the ill-handling McLaren, came from 8th to third in two laps. In Donnington he put on a masterclass. Prost, whom many suggest was Senna's equal in ability, was lapped by his own teammate.
The thing I always think of when the topic of Senna comes up, is what is he doing with his feet in the nsx video? For some reason he repeatedly stabs at the throttle mid corner etc. I can't understand it, or why he does it. Is he trying to break traction or unweight the car for some reason or what?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
CoolHands said:
The thing I always think of when the topic of Senna comes up, is what is he doing with his feet in the nsx video? For some reason he repeatedly stabs at the throttle mid corner etc. I can't understand it, or why he does it. Is he trying to break traction or unweight the car for some reason or what?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
This was something very unique he did. He would stacatto the throttle in a corner, ie to maintain speed all the way through a corner. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
Several engineers who worked with him have mentioned this characteristic. Another example of his skill as most drivers did not have the ability to do that and nor would they have maintained control the way he did if they tried. Gordon Murray once explained this in an interview and what an advantage it gave him in speed over his teammates.
It appears a few people on this thread still cannot make the distinction between his sheer skill as a driver and his ethics because he did some questionable things. I feel the two should be viewed seperately as we know he pushed it too far on occasion, but that takes nothing away from his talent, that is a temperament issue.
In terms of sublime talent and unique ability to drive he remains the greatest and this was another example of that.
Eric Mc said:
I always assess people on their overall persona - not just their technical abilities. On that score, I will always hold Senna in a lesser light than some other racing drivers.
That's also the reason why I will never like the Portuguese footballer, Renaldo.
Renaldo was/is Brazilian That's also the reason why I will never like the Portuguese footballer, Renaldo.
CoolHands said:
The thing I always think of when the topic of Senna comes up, is what is he doing with his feet in the nsx video? For some reason he repeatedly stabs at the throttle mid corner etc. I can't understand it, or why he does it. Is he trying to break traction or unweight the car for some reason or what?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
I believe he developed this skill through the turbo era. It was used to keep the revs up through the corners to maintain boost.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
Eric mostly nailed this three years ago:
Pondering the subject now I have to say that there is a strikingly similarity between his flaws and those of Schumacher, who in my opinion was another who's talent dial went up to eleven so maybe it's something that comes with the territory?
Eric Mc said:
No, he wasn't overrated.
But he has been inappropriately deified.
He was clearly a phenomenally talented racing driver, in some ways he just had that extra notch on the dial that the majority of even superbly talented drivers don't. And there's plenty to suggest he was, at heart, a decent human being as well, look at all his charity work. That doesn't mean he was perfect though, like all humans he had his flaws both on and off track - I found his role in the whole Suzuka debacle with Prost to be disgusting to be honest and I can't deny that it lowered my opinion of him significantly. But he has been inappropriately deified.
Pondering the subject now I have to say that there is a strikingly similarity between his flaws and those of Schumacher, who in my opinion was another who's talent dial went up to eleven so maybe it's something that comes with the territory?
I have two opinions to offer.
The first is my own: For what he did at Suzuka in 1990, he should never have been allowed within a mile of a racing car ever again. He could have caused any number of fatalities.
The second is of a friend who, watching an early-90s F1 race, said, "The way that Senna drives, he's obviously going to kill somebody sooner or later."
The first is my own: For what he did at Suzuka in 1990, he should never have been allowed within a mile of a racing car ever again. He could have caused any number of fatalities.
The second is of a friend who, watching an early-90s F1 race, said, "The way that Senna drives, he's obviously going to kill somebody sooner or later."
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