95 - 02 F1 Tech
Discussion
Megaflow said:
So, all the rumours about RB's floor flexing were correct, just not for the reason people were think.
I'm confident it was running as a mass damper, there is some slow mo on youtube from TV at the time which showed the floor stay flexing repeatedly at around the rate required for damping (hard to tell from TV due to the FPS) - basically the floor became the weight and the stay the spring of a more coventionally arranged mass damper. Actually having just googled for the video someones done a much nicer edit showing it really clearly: http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/Somersrallysl...
Time to see how much the bias has drifted...
On these, if they test good then they'll be refurbed with new seals and connectors with a note attached for any shift in bias so we can account for it in the electronics. Ideally you'd just fit new but at £3.5K a pop if you can get a few more KMs from then you tend to take that option!
If we have an issue on circuit with one it gets changed for investigation later on, as such we carry a complete car set of spare Moogs for each car.
On these, if they test good then they'll be refurbed with new seals and connectors with a note attached for any shift in bias so we can account for it in the electronics. Ideally you'd just fit new but at £3.5K a pop if you can get a few more KMs from then you tend to take that option!
If we have an issue on circuit with one it gets changed for investigation later on, as such we carry a complete car set of spare Moogs for each car.
Edited by poppopbangbang on Monday 1st September 11:30
Agent Orange said:
Great thread and appreciate your time and insight. 
Which component from the era do you regard as the most beautifully engineered? Both in function and aesthetics?
Function has to be the hydraulics, the power density is amazing and when you think we actuate pretty much everything that moves on the entire car from a pump smaller than your fist it's pretty impressive. Which component from the era do you regard as the most beautifully engineered? Both in function and aesthetics?
From an aesthetic point of view it's got to be rear diffuser exit, especially on the cars which were using blow or heavy integration with the rear wing. The amount of angles, bits, curves and shaping going on is astounding.
Well not a great deal to fill you all in on at the moment as it's that point in the year where we've run out of KMs on most parts. Currently all that is on the workshop floor is a lot of F1s in pieces awaiting the return of their fresh engines for the start of next year.
We did a test last week that went very well so nothing exciting to report there.
It's all a bit boring at the moment! We start our Winter builds in December though so plenty to update you all on at that point.
Sorry for being a bit disapointing LOL
With regards steering wheels most F1s are using a Lemo rather than an AS as per the picture above as they are lighter. Ours are all semi floating and self aligning so rather than relying on the connector staying rigid in the wheel they are sprung and self centre and as a result it is impossible to bend the pins on the male half during engagement.
Modern stuff is using fewer pins than our stuff as they are now doing power over CAN so with five wires up the column (PTT is usually hard wired for obvious reasons) everything else is coming over two seperate pairs of CAN wiring, usually split functions and display. All the functions you see on the wheel are therefore passed to the car on just two wires with the display acting as a CAN gateway and encoding these swithc positions etc. onto the CANbus. Rosbergs failure was due to one of these buses failing which left the dash working but not a lot else!
The M189 bits would have been for Motohistorics who built one a couple of years ago. We do still use steel cables for edge of floor support on our stuff though. The Jag might have been for Klaus's lot? Was it for an R5?
We did a test last week that went very well so nothing exciting to report there.
It's all a bit boring at the moment! We start our Winter builds in December though so plenty to update you all on at that point.
Sorry for being a bit disapointing LOL
With regards steering wheels most F1s are using a Lemo rather than an AS as per the picture above as they are lighter. Ours are all semi floating and self aligning so rather than relying on the connector staying rigid in the wheel they are sprung and self centre and as a result it is impossible to bend the pins on the male half during engagement.
Modern stuff is using fewer pins than our stuff as they are now doing power over CAN so with five wires up the column (PTT is usually hard wired for obvious reasons) everything else is coming over two seperate pairs of CAN wiring, usually split functions and display. All the functions you see on the wheel are therefore passed to the car on just two wires with the display acting as a CAN gateway and encoding these swithc positions etc. onto the CANbus. Rosbergs failure was due to one of these buses failing which left the dash working but not a lot else!
The M189 bits would have been for Motohistorics who built one a couple of years ago. We do still use steel cables for edge of floor support on our stuff though. The Jag might have been for Klaus's lot? Was it for an R5?
renmure said:
FairfieldSteve said:
What an excellent, well written and wonderfully informative thread.
Thank you.
Can't say it better than that.Thank you.
One thing I forgot to mention is that the splined hubs for the wheel quick release as per the pic above went out of favour in the late 90's, most stuff since then has used a four taper prong or similar type setup as it allows the wheel to be fitted fair easier, reduces free play in the quick release and helps alignment so the self centering electrical connector has less work to do. I will grab some pics of a circa 2000 era wheel if I'm in tomorrow.
Megaflow said:
PPBB will be along with a more detailed explanation, but simplistically, the springs and dampers were replaced with hydraulic rams and the car programmed with a ride height and rake the team desired. The rams are then adjusted to try and maintain that ride height and rake to maximise the aero performance of the car. It could also control the side to side roll of the car, thus I believe, doing away with anti roll bars.
If you search FW14B on You Tube the are some videos of the car going up and down on the rams in the garage as the team check the system.
Yep that's about it but the system wasn't rigid, it allowed an almost infinite combination of effective spring and damper rates too and the strategies included anti-dive for braking, squat for launch etc. etc. If you search FW14B on You Tube the are some videos of the car going up and down on the rams in the garage as the team check the system.
marshall100 said:
While I don't want to sound like some kind of vulture, just suppose the cars from Marussia and Caterham find their ways into the hands of private buyers. Would the tech supplied by the likes of Mclaren still be in the car along with the hybrid systems etc?
Does that mean you guys are having to swot up on hybrids and so on?
Generally yes as this kit is usualy purchased not leased. Current stuff is easy to run as there is still support available if required. The older stuff is much more challenging really despite the simpler tech as there is no support and you are very much on your own!Does that mean you guys are having to swot up on hybrids and so on?
Silent1 said:
Which are almost totally useless for anything we do as they essentially emulate an XT compatible serial port in the connector but many lack proper implementation of hardware RTS/CTS which we rely on for some things and seem to really struggle with latency when there is a constant 115200bps data flow through the port. Tried A LOT of them over the years with little success.TheConverted said:
Don't think anyone has asked this yet PPBB.
What's most interesting/amazing solution to a problem or piece of engineering. you've come across?
IE something thats made you step back and go 'wow thats genius', cheeky I know can we see it, if you're able to get pictures?
Thanks Andy
Toyota with their "water cooled" exhausts. Actually they were injecting specific quantities of water into the exhaust post collect to change the density of the exhaust gas within it and therefore the effective length of the exhaust. Worked extremely well filling in the torque hole that a V10 FPC suffers from and was quite frankly absolutely genius in it's design, execution and pitch for approval by the FIA.What's most interesting/amazing solution to a problem or piece of engineering. you've come across?
IE something thats made you step back and go 'wow thats genius', cheeky I know can we see it, if you're able to get pictures?
Thanks Andy
marshall100 said:
Did all the Toyota cars, or at least most of them find their way into the hands of private buyers?
No not at all, or at least not complete. The racec cars (in terms of full GP spec working cars) are still with Toyota aside from those with FNT. Some show cars and PR cars went to private hands. You cannot buy a Toyota F1 from Toyota but it is possible to own one via us/FNT. TF102, 104 and 105 are available complete with spares, support, tyres and consumables in race ready form. Silent1 said:
eliot said:
poppopbangbang said:
Silent1 said:
Which are almost totally useless for anything we do as they essentially emulate an XT compatible serial port in the connector but many lack proper implementation of hardware RTS/CTS which we rely on for some things and seem to really struggle with latency when there is a constant 115200bps data flow through the port. Tried A LOT of them over the years with little success.http://www.pridopia.co.uk/952cb.html
I use for automotive and home automation, which like proper serial ports.
Also many docking stations for laptops come with a proper serial port on the back - although I'm talking about IBM thinkpads, which seem pretty strong reliable.
Macbook for show, Toughbook for a pro and all that
So busy winter.....
First off here are two engines that now work again:
Firstly fully old school with an ED on a cable throttle. This one was a pain, not just because bits are hard to get as it's not that common with a HB despite what it looks like but also because we don't have a dyno ECU for this engine so ended up transplanting the entire car, dash board and all, onto the dyno. You can see the dash suspended in the top right hand corner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMiP8EBfqfI
Knocked the rev limit down by 1000RPM over what it would have run in the day to get a few more KMs life from it but it still sings very well for an old lump!
Then a bit more like our usual fair with another Fondmetal V10, this one is for demo use so a big chunk of revs knocked off what it would have been in the day with us only going to 14K, it still made nearly 700bhp though so that's not bad for three litres and not many revs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYDVXjFHW1Q
A bit more of a challenge was replicating the functionality of a Moog valve with a pair of PWM driven hydraulic valves but we got there in the end on that one too. Full fly by wire hydraulic clutch control with half the pressure it was designed to run on and a pair of what are basically modified industrial valves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDGThb9O4pE
For applications where the original hydraulics are missing and the package means we can't use something we have got it is simply too expensive to create them again so we end up going down the route of making something that works for the budget. It's not quick enough for a race car (response time around 90ms vs 15ms) but for demo use it's fine.
We also fixed some Ferrari F93 electronics, made a couple of old Tyrells work, fitted a steering wheel operated clutch system to a gorgeous Ralt RT3, got a couple of pretty turbo era cars going and are in the process of getting a relatively modern Jordan going again. Pics on that to follow
First off here are two engines that now work again:
Firstly fully old school with an ED on a cable throttle. This one was a pain, not just because bits are hard to get as it's not that common with a HB despite what it looks like but also because we don't have a dyno ECU for this engine so ended up transplanting the entire car, dash board and all, onto the dyno. You can see the dash suspended in the top right hand corner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMiP8EBfqfI
Knocked the rev limit down by 1000RPM over what it would have run in the day to get a few more KMs life from it but it still sings very well for an old lump!
Then a bit more like our usual fair with another Fondmetal V10, this one is for demo use so a big chunk of revs knocked off what it would have been in the day with us only going to 14K, it still made nearly 700bhp though so that's not bad for three litres and not many revs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYDVXjFHW1Q
A bit more of a challenge was replicating the functionality of a Moog valve with a pair of PWM driven hydraulic valves but we got there in the end on that one too. Full fly by wire hydraulic clutch control with half the pressure it was designed to run on and a pair of what are basically modified industrial valves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDGThb9O4pE
For applications where the original hydraulics are missing and the package means we can't use something we have got it is simply too expensive to create them again so we end up going down the route of making something that works for the budget. It's not quick enough for a race car (response time around 90ms vs 15ms) but for demo use it's fine.
We also fixed some Ferrari F93 electronics, made a couple of old Tyrells work, fitted a steering wheel operated clutch system to a gorgeous Ralt RT3, got a couple of pretty turbo era cars going and are in the process of getting a relatively modern Jordan going again. Pics on that to follow
MJK 24 said:
I wonder if PPBB or any other knowledgeable thread contributors could answer a question for me...
Last August, I visited the Enzo Ferrari museum in Maranello. They had various old F1 engines in display. A V10 and I'm pretty sure a V12 that were on display, the fuel injectors were mounted above the intake trumpets on the individual throttle body. On a more conventional set up, the injector would be mounted in the body of the throttle body below the intake trumpet.
1) Why did Ferrari mount the injector above the intake?
2) Was this common practice amongst all F1 engine manufacturers of that period?
Any answers would be much appreciated!
There was a little single cylinder Ferrari engine on display that they used for component testing. I thought that was quite
interesting!
Throttles over trumpets as stated by Megaflow are for mixing, there are also some advantages with reducing wall wetting in the port under certain conditions for more accurate AFR control. Last August, I visited the Enzo Ferrari museum in Maranello. They had various old F1 engines in display. A V10 and I'm pretty sure a V12 that were on display, the fuel injectors were mounted above the intake trumpets on the individual throttle body. On a more conventional set up, the injector would be mounted in the body of the throttle body below the intake trumpet.
1) Why did Ferrari mount the injector above the intake?
2) Was this common practice amongst all F1 engine manufacturers of that period?
Any answers would be much appreciated!
There was a little single cylinder Ferrari engine on display that they used for component testing. I thought that was quite
interesting!
With regards your second questions yes stand off injectors were common to all F1 engines during this period and were right up until the engines went DI in 2014.
PW1962 said:
As someone who has only limited knowledge of F1 engineering I can say that this thread has by far been the best I've ever read... Thank you so much for giving us a look behind the curtain..
So what's the story behind the man ... Where did you start and how did you end up where you are now ?
You seem to know all aspects of engineering... Electronics etc ... To a very very high standard ...
Oh ... and please keep posting ... Utterly amazing stuff I'm learning ...
Paul
Started when I was 15 and never stopped is the best way to sum it up with various jobs in motorsport along the way with teams, engine suppliers etc. All aspects of engineering is a bit of a stretch though - my skill set is very much engine, gearbox, control focused. I'm definitely not the bloke you want putting a setup on a car or developing your aero So what's the story behind the man ... Where did you start and how did you end up where you are now ?
You seem to know all aspects of engineering... Electronics etc ... To a very very high standard ...
Oh ... and please keep posting ... Utterly amazing stuff I'm learning ...
Paul
Tj2005 said:
Hi poppopbangbang
Hi to all
great post that unfortunately i have seen only now.
I'm a fan of Minardi F1 team and of 2000-2010 era of the formula 1 car. That period is my passion and so thanks a lot for the pictures and all the info in this post.
The V10 sound was music.
One question if possible about especially minardi F1 cars.
For pure passion i'm rebuilding a TJ2005 V10 engine used in the minardi PS05 f1 car, only for display use of course.
The last Minardi F1 car, the last Cosworth V10 Engine. I think is a big piece of history.
I would want to complete this TJ2005 engine and show it in my garage to all my friends
For this reason , i'm looking for some parts of this cosworth engine.
I have seen in this post many pictures of minardi F1 parts and many info about and so for this i ask.
Do you know where to find parts available for this engine to purchase (new/used/damaged/broken can are ok)?
I Need Carbon camcovers, the right head cilinder (right seeing the engine from front, where is attached to the chassis), the exhausts, the airbox with the trumpets/throttle parts, some electronic carbon case (only case is ok) , Oil tank, official documentation and some others parts.
Are for display , so if they are new or used/damaged/broken, are ok.
I have tried with Cosworth directly and with modatek but unfortunately they can't/don't want help me
Can you help me or someone can help me to find something to complete this dream ?
However thanks a lot for this post and for all the info in it
Regards
I have just tried to e-mail you but unfortunately you're not accepting mails. If you ping a message for my attention to the address on the tour-de-force.co.uk site I'll happily tell you where you can source 90% of the bits you need Hi to all
great post that unfortunately i have seen only now.
I'm a fan of Minardi F1 team and of 2000-2010 era of the formula 1 car. That period is my passion and so thanks a lot for the pictures and all the info in this post.
The V10 sound was music.
One question if possible about especially minardi F1 cars.
For pure passion i'm rebuilding a TJ2005 V10 engine used in the minardi PS05 f1 car, only for display use of course.
The last Minardi F1 car, the last Cosworth V10 Engine. I think is a big piece of history.
I would want to complete this TJ2005 engine and show it in my garage to all my friends
For this reason , i'm looking for some parts of this cosworth engine.
I have seen in this post many pictures of minardi F1 parts and many info about and so for this i ask.
Do you know where to find parts available for this engine to purchase (new/used/damaged/broken can are ok)?
I Need Carbon camcovers, the right head cilinder (right seeing the engine from front, where is attached to the chassis), the exhausts, the airbox with the trumpets/throttle parts, some electronic carbon case (only case is ok) , Oil tank, official documentation and some others parts.
Are for display , so if they are new or used/damaged/broken, are ok.
I have tried with Cosworth directly and with modatek but unfortunately they can't/don't want help me
Can you help me or someone can help me to find something to complete this dream ?
However thanks a lot for this post and for all the info in it
Regards
Sorry to disappoint chaps but I'm retired these days. Whilst I'm still doing bits within motorsport it's very much for the love of it.
However I'd recommend you watch Driver 61s channel on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/Driver61/videos Scott and his dad Kevin have quite a few videos explaining the tech of this era of F1 and it's well worth a watch.
However I'd recommend you watch Driver 61s channel on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/Driver61/videos Scott and his dad Kevin have quite a few videos explaining the tech of this era of F1 and it's well worth a watch.
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