Who's Toto Wolff?

[John Strangways]

Muzzer79 said:

John Strangways said:

Muzzer79 said:

John Strangways said:

Muzzer79 said:

..blah..opinion...blah

As for Mercedes spending more money and time than others - I'm sure that others, notably Ferrari, could have given them a run for their money in those stakes.

It was well known that Merc spent more over a much longer period developing the hybrid pre 2014 than the other teams. It suits some fans to forget that and associate their wins with brilliant personal performance instead.

More fool the other teams then. They had as much opportunity as Mercedes.

If the key to winning in F1 is just money and time and not personal performance then somebody better tell Jaguar, Toyota, Ferrari (post 2007) McLaren.......

So you think it was nothing to do with the engine? The engine merc had a single cylinder mock up of in 2010 before the regs were even finalised.... ok.

They all had the opportunity? Did they? Interesting. I can assure you they didn't, given only Merc and Ferrari made their own engines and the financial clout etc.

I didn't say it had nothing to do with the engine. The engine was a key part of the package. Mercedes did that better than the other teams, just like Red Bull are doing ground effect better than the other teams now.

To seperate that out from Wolff to discredit his success is just bizarre. Do you discredit Christian Horner's achievements on the basis that he would be nothing without Adrian Newey's aero genius?

All teams had the opportunity. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault were doing engines. It's not Mercedes fault if the latter two cocked it up, nor does it mean their achievements are worth less.

Where have i said their achievements are worth less? The whole HPP hybrid plan was well before Toto, run from a different company and by a different man and was massively instrumental in the Merc success so yes i can easily separate Toto from that, that was the point. If you remember 2014 then you'll remember that from mid season Williams were more often than not 3/4th with what we know was a fairly rubbish car but they had figured out their engine deployment a bit after the works team and were 2nd quicked by the end (mclaren who were already comitted to Honda were not afforded the same working relations as Williams) ...the early hybrid success was all engine related.

To answer your other question which is a bit weird and not related at all, Horner Hired Newey and provided a framework for him to stay motivated so i think he can take small credit for that.

[520TORQUES]

Based on the rapid fall in performance of Williams, the engine played a diminishing % of the cars performance relatively quickly.

The aero, suspension and chassis team at Mercedes have never got the recognition they deserved, despite the Hybrids being important, F1 has always been predominantly an Aero formula since the mid 70's and Mercedes had that working better than the others with the benefit of their clever suspension design. Gearbox was very clever too with the development of their gear cluster cartridge system.

[Henson]

MarkwG said:

Isn't it odd how really low number posters appear out of the woodwork around school holidays, rehashing old tropes that ran out of gas ages ago...? Very strange way of behaving...

Each poster profile seems to have the same abrasive/aggressive, know-all style of posting, too.
Funny that.

[John Strangways]

520TORQUES said:

Based on the rapid fall in performance of Williams, the engine played a diminishing % of the cars performance relatively quickly.

The aero, suspension and chassis team at Mercedes have never got the recognition they deserved, despite the Hybrids being important, F1 has always been predominantly an Aero formula since the mid 70's and Mercedes had that working better than the others with the benefit of their clever suspension design. Gearbox was very clever too with the development of their gear cluster cartridge system.

3rd, 3rd, 4th (due to starting to run out of cash for development) was a purple patch for Williams 2014-2016. No doubt Merc was a good car, nobody has said it wasn't. I suspect Red Bull probably had a better chassis but were massively hamstrung by the Renault power unit. It was most certainly a (more biased than previously) engine formula (well a formula where the engine was a significant differentiator) from 2014 onwards for a number of years, the fact Renault still haven't achieved parity 9 years later is testament to this.

[520TORQUES]

The Enstone team hasn't been competitive since Alonso.

[John Strangways]

520TORQUES said:

The Enstone team hasn't been competitive since Alonso.

a largely irrelevant point but 2012 4th WCC with a race win and multiple podiums is competitive to me.

I was talking engine parity previously for clarity. cheers

[NRS]

John Strangways said:

Westyn said:

He certainly makes things more interesting in F1. One of the best team managers in F1 history.

Is he? He had zero impact at Williams except to force his partner in as a 'development driver' then inherited an organisation set up and organised by Ross Brawn and took a load of championship wins mainly because Mercedes had spent far longer and far more money than anyone else developing the hybrid engine. As time has passed the organisation has clung onto those peaks generated from pre toto activity in the main and now is suffering under his leadership.

Oh, you were finally banned then Bo_apex? Welcome back.

[Henson]

NRS said:

Oh, you were finally banned then Bo_apex? Welcome back.

What the deuce?

Right idea. Wrong one.

[Orchardab]

NRS said:

John Strangways said:

Westyn said:

He certainly makes things more interesting in F1. One of the best team managers in F1 history.

Is he? He had zero impact at Williams except to force his partner in as a 'development driver' then inherited an organisation set up and organised by Ross Brawn and took a load of championship wins mainly because Mercedes had spent far longer and far more money than anyone else developing the hybrid engine. As time has passed the organisation has clung onto those peaks generated from pre toto activity in the main and now is suffering under his leadership.

I have to agree, buying a team set up by RB for the rule change and forcing the cleaver guy out….
Now there has been another rule change coupled with Toto having no idea how to lead his team and retain staff, he is looking a little silly.
Wonder how long it we’ll be before Merc or Jim dump their shares and recognise peak value.
At least IKEA are selling lots of desks.

[Hustle_]

Orchardab said:

cleaver guy….

Ross Brawn is quite sharp

[PhilAsia]

Toto spearheaded a team that has had more podiums than RB, with the 2023 version of the most dominant car ever. MB had more podiums in three seasons than even this years RB.

Horner should take note.

[zsdom]

PhilAsia said:

Toto spearheaded a team that has had more podiums than RB, with the 2023 version of the most dominant car ever. MB had more podiums in three seasons than even this years RB.

Horner should take note.

Yes but we all know that all of this is down to Ross Brawns work up until Toto took over, F1 hasnt changed at all in those 10 years & Toto has just ridden the waves of success without doing any work ever since

[MarkwG]

zsdom said:

PhilAsia said:

Toto spearheaded a team that has had more podiums than RB, with the 2023 version of the most dominant car ever. MB had more podiums in three seasons than even this years RB.

Horner should take note.

Yes but we all know that all of this is down to Ross Brawns work up until Toto took over, F1 hasnt changed at all in those 10 years & Toto has just ridden the waves of success without doing any work ever since

He's only there to keep headphone salesmen in business

[NRS]

Do we even know if Ross Brawn is any good these days? Is his recent success not down to the Merc engine, rather than his own skills?

[PhilAsia]

MarkwG said:

zsdom said:

PhilAsia said:

Toto spearheaded a team that has had more podiums than RB, with the 2023 version of the most dominant car ever. MB had more podiums in three seasons than even this years RB.

Horner should take note.

Yes but we all know that all of this is down to Ross Brawns work up until Toto took over, F1 hasnt changed at all in those 10 years & Toto has just ridden the waves of success without doing any work ever since

He's only there to keep headphone salesmen in business

Quality Controller...