Is Vettel overrated?

[mattikake]

leglessAlex said:

mattikake said:

You didn't look very hard. Here's some links.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/15701489
http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/3213/8429976/Hamil...
http://www.racingfanatic.net/2013/01/hamilton-says...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130117/f1/130119...
http://www.f1today.net/es/noticias/hamilton-alonso...
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/confident-al...

There were also many articles on skysports and BBC/F1 but these are not showing up on google searches, anyway I figured the first few links were enough. There were even features in driver TV interviews IIRC.

The Alonso:Hamilton mutual praise is pretty common knowledge to those who pay attention to their sport. While this was obviously backhanded mind games to play on Vettel and a dig at not having the best car, they've also been around long enough to genuinely decide for themselves who they think are the best drivers out there.

None of their teammates have ever pushed them as hard as they pushed each other...

I think you misunderstood me, possibly my fault for not being clear. Sorry.

In MGjohn's original post I took what he said to mean that Hamilton or Alonso were referring to themselves as the best drivers on the grid, not each other. If indeed MGjohn was referring to the Hamilton/Alonso love in then he has my apologies for misunderstanding, I did indeed know about this.

Edit: Having read MGjohns most recent post it appears he no longer wants to talk to me, however will I sleep at night I do not know. The apology still stands if the misunderstanding was indeed a misunderstanding.

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 10th April 22:29

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 10th April 22:29

Oh right ok. MGJohn said;

MGJohn said:

leglessAlex said:

Don't most of the grid consider Alonso or Hamilton to be the fastest and most talented out there at the moment?

Most of the grid possibly but, certainly Alonso and Hamilton do . Both have considered and even stated something on those lines when they were having less successful seasons than Vettel ... four of them in fact.....

If I was really cynical, the words Kidology or even Professional Jealously would come to mind. ...

I took this to mean that LH was saying FA is the best driver on the grid and FA was saying LH is the best driver on the grid, not that they both think they are themselves the best driver on the grid. And therefore a backhanded criticism of Vettel. Every driver thinks they are the best. That's the nature of winners. But what they may say is something else.

Hence his 'Kidology' point.

[leglessAlex]

mattikake said:

MGJohn said:

leglessAlex said:

Don't most of the grid consider Alonso or Hamilton to be the fastest and most talented out there at the moment?

Most of the grid possibly but, certainly Alonso and Hamilton do . Both have considered and even stated something on those lines when they were having less successful seasons than Vettel ... four of them in fact.....

If I was really cynical, the words Kidology or even Professional Jealously would come to mind. ...

I took this to mean that LH was saying FA is the best driver on the grid and FA was saying LH is the best driver on the grid, not that they both think they are themselves the best driver on the grid. And therefore a backhanded criticism of Vettel. Every driver thinks they are the best. That's the nature of winners. But what they may say is something else.

Hence his 'Kidology' point.

That's fair, sounds like it was just a misunderstanding then if that was what MGJohn meant.

[NRS]

DS240 said:

How a multiple world champion can be labelled as overrated is a bit daft.

There will always be good drivers who luck in on great cars and their success is perhaps overly boosted.

Em, I think that's the whole point of this discussion...

[IainT]

MGJohn said:

IainT said:

Pretty sure I recall you arguing that it's the points that count when Jens and Lewis were team-mates John although I may be mistaken and do so humbly beg forgiveness if that is the case.

No need for an apology. Some did make that point about the points ( ... ... ) but I was not one of them. I was however insistent that contrary to the majority of PHer opinions at that time, when Button joined Hamilton at McLaren Hamilton would not out-perform and out-drive him on the track despite the advantage of his standing within and time served in the team. Button won his first race in McL. That is IIRC, which is not always the case on account of extreme agedness.. .. No way did he out-perform him even when scoring more points. McLaren maladies and ricketts did for the two of them ... with much Vettel and Red Bull assists.

Ah, fair play John - I may not have your mileage but I've a pretty shocking memory! I think that I remember the discussions now and you have the right of it. Honours even at McLaren from two excellent British champions.

It's probably only in a season like this one - where one car has a huge advantage - that you'll get the chance to compare the merits of two team-mates. Although, no matter what the final points positions, teh WDC is more likely to be decided by reliability or bad-luck (e.g. being on track near Maldonado) so we'll probably not the get 'Nico-Lewis' question fully settled.

[DS240]

NRS said:

Em, I think that's the whole point of this discussion...

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

[Composite Guru]

DS240 said:

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

This thread is pointless. Just a load of people that hate Vettel b1tching about how cr&p he is. The bloke has got 4 consecutive WDC under his belt, get over it and move on.

Edited by Composite Guru on Friday 11th April 10:15

[longblackcoat]

IainT said:

we'll probably not the get 'Nico-Lewis' question fully settled.

All to be proved in the coming months, obviously, but on the basis of what we've seen I'd have to disagree with you.

LH has been blisteringly fast in two of the three qualification sessions, and but for the car failure in Australia would doubtless have had three wins in a row. Proof that he's fast, sure, but not that he's a better racer ..... until you get to the final ten laps of Bahrain. Every commentator that I was listening to (Sky, BBC, Radio 5) were convinced that it was just a matter of a few laps before he was passed The way LH fought off NR in an equal car (but crucially, without the benefit of DRS and with the slower tyres) was astonishing, and really laid down a marker: you do NOT get past.

I think this will set the pattern for the year; NR will doubtless get some poles, and will do some lights-to-flag victories when he chooses a better set-up option and/or when there are mechanical issues. But unless there's a sea-change in the next few races, NR knows what's coming. He's been beaten, soundly, by LH in the three races so far this season whenever the cars were running, and has been beaten 2-1 on qualification.

I'm going to stick my neck out right now and say LH for WDC by 70 points.
2nd: NR
3rd: NH
4th: SV
5th: FA

[IainT]

lbc - my heart wants to see that outcome and I sincerely hope that Lewis continues his form. I was convinced he was going to be passed, I could barely watch the screen and was over the moon when he held Nico off.

If they both finish the remaining races with Lewis winning most of the races we'll have something fairly definitive to go off although last season there was little between them. We could put this down to the well-discussed issue Lewis had with brake feel but what's to say there isn't something about this year's car that doesn't similarly disadvantage Nico?

It's all very complificated and, no matter what the results, I just hope we have a great season of racing as exciting as the last race!

[Melman Giraffe]

Composite Guru said:

DS240 said:

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

This thread is pointless. Just a load of people that hate Vettel b1tching about how cr&p he is. The bloke has got 4 consecutive WDC under his belt, get over it and move on.

Edited by Composite Guru on Friday 11th April 10:15

Would he have four title in a Maclaren - Err no

[Composite Guru]

Melman Giraffe said:

Composite Guru said:

DS240 said:

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

This thread is pointless. Just a load of people that hate Vettel b1tching about how cr&p he is. The bloke has got 4 consecutive WDC under his belt, get over it and move on.

Edited by Composite Guru on Friday 11th April 10:15

Would he have four title in a Maclaren - Err no

Once again you could say that for anyone!! Hamilton wasn't any good last year but he is now he has a good car under him he is.

[Melman Giraffe]

Composite Guru said:

Melman Giraffe said:

Composite Guru said:

DS240 said:

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

This thread is pointless. Just a load of people that hate Vettel b1tching about how cr&p he is. The bloke has got 4 consecutive WDC under his belt, get over it and move on.

Edited by Composite Guru on Friday 11th April 10:15

Would he have four title in a Maclaren - Err no

Once again you could say that for anyone!! Hamilton wasn't any good last year but he is now he has a good car under him he is.

Ok so who would you consider the better driver Hamilton or Vettel? Lets presume they had the same car, who would win the most races?

[Composite Guru]

Melman Giraffe said:

Ok so who would you consider the better driver Hamilton or Vettel? Lets presume they had the same car, who would win the most races?

I reckon they would be fairly even. Hamilton is far more agressive in his driving style so he would probably need tyres before Vettel. Vettel is far smoother in the treatment of the car but carries the speed too.

[longblackcoat]

Melman Giraffe said:

Ok so who would you consider the better driver Hamilton or Vettel? Lets presume they had the same car, who would win the most races?

I'd say - narrowly - that it would be Hamilton if he could get his starts sorted. I just don't believe that Vettel (or anyone else at present) can live with him in wheel-to-wheel racing.

On the other hand, Vettel's very good at getting the best from what he has, and at working with the team. That's not to damn with faint praise - these are incredibly important skills for a WDC, which Webber didn't have, and Vettel clearly has in spades.

So it would be really close - and a fight I'd love to see.

[Melman Giraffe]

Composite Guru said:

Melman Giraffe said:

Ok so who would you consider the better driver Hamilton or Vettel? Lets presume they had the same car, who would win the most races?

I reckon they would be fairly even. Hamilton is far more agressive in his driving style so he would probably need tyres before Vettel. Vettel is far smoother in the treatment of the car but carries the speed too.

Sorry can't agree with that and I'm not a Hamilton Fan boy

[RealSquirrels]

longblackcoat said:

I'd say - narrowly - that it would be Hamilton if he could get his starts sorted. I just don't believe that Vettel (or anyone else at present) can live with him in wheel-to-wheel racing.

On the other hand, Vettel's very good at getting the best from what he has, and at working with the team. That's not to damn with faint praise - these are incredibly important skills for a WDC, which Webber didn't have, and Vettel clearly has in spades.

So it would be really close - and a fight I'd love to see.

this isn't true at all. every time the regulations changed in the exhaust blown diffuser era, generally reducing the magnitude of the effect, vettel was at sea and easily beaten by mark webber. whenever red bull regained the effect with some clever engineering, vettel was back on form again. This demonstrates a lack of adaptability to me.

[oyster]

Melman Giraffe said:

Composite Guru said:

Melman Giraffe said:

Composite Guru said:

DS240 said:

Sorry, let me put a blunter reply.

Going around in circles arguing and bickering with each other about who is 'the best' is all a bit primary school playground stuff.

You'll never get a definitive answer because of the many variables.

This thread is pointless. Just a load of people that hate Vettel b1tching about how cr&p he is. The bloke has got 4 consecutive WDC under his belt, get over it and move on.

Edited by Composite Guru on Friday 11th April 10:15

Would he have four title in a Maclaren - Err no

Once again you could say that for anyone!! Hamilton wasn't any good last year but he is now he has a good car under him he is.

Ok so who would you consider the better driver Hamilton or Vettel? Lets presume they had the same car, who would win the most races?

What a stupid question though.

Part of the skill of an F1 driver is in choosing the right team to be with and in cajoling that team to perform better.


It also means categorically beating your team mate. Hamilton is doing a good job on that so far this year.



Oh and you conveniently forget the fact that Hamilton has already arguably lost 2 WDCs already (2007 and 2010) when he was in close contention. Vettel has won every title he's had a sniff at. He even nearly stole 2009 after Button had a massive lead.

[longblackcoat]

RealSquirrels said:

longblackcoat said:

I'd say - narrowly - that it would be Hamilton if he could get his starts sorted. I just don't believe that Vettel (or anyone else at present) can live with him in wheel-to-wheel racing.

On the other hand, Vettel's very good at getting the best from what he has, and at working with the team. That's not to damn with faint praise - these are incredibly important skills for a WDC, which Webber didn't have, and Vettel clearly has in spades.

So it would be really close - and a fight I'd love to see.

this isn't true at all. every time the regulations changed in the exhaust blown diffuser era, generally reducing the magnitude of the effect, vettel was at sea and easily beaten by mark webber. whenever red bull regained the effect with some clever engineering, vettel was back on form again. This demonstrates a lack of adaptability to me.

Even by your own logic that makes no sense. Even if what you say is accurate about Webber easily beating Vettel when the technology changed, the fact that Vettel inevitably ended up on top proves that he possesses extreme adaptability, in that he changed his driving style to get the best from whatever Newey & his team came up with. Webber simply couldn't, given the same car.

[RealSquirrels]

newsy changed the cars to regain the exhaust blown diffuser effect whenever the regulations were changed to try to mitigate it. until the car was updated, vettel was lost. then once the effect was reestablished by the engineers, vettel was quick again.

this year, there is no prospect of the EBD existing. what do we see? vettel is being beaten by his team mate again.

[longblackcoat]

RealSquirrels said:

newsy changed the cars to regain the exhaust blown diffuser effect whenever the regulations were changed to try to mitigate it. until the car was updated, vettel was lost. then once the effect was reestablished by the engineers, vettel was quick again.

this year, there is no prospect of the EBD existing. what do we see? vettel is being beaten by his team mate again.

Need to see a lot more of this season before you can make that call; so far he's had a non finish in Aus (car died) and yet has twice as many points as his team-mate.

[RealSquirrels]

hamilton had a non finish in australia and has fewer points than his team mate. points don't tell the whole story.