Is Vettel overrated?
Poll: Is Vettel overrated?
Total Members Polled: 458
Discussion
Points at the end of the season are the ONLY story between team-mates.
I'm happy to put on record that I think Ricciardo's the real deal, but also that he'll be 100 points behind Vettel at the end of the year. SV's an absolutely excellent driver; I don't think he's as good a racer as some of the others, but this might be the year that he fixes that. Equally, he might never win another championship; just like Fernando Alonso he's stuck with poor equipment with little prospect of getting on equal terms for the next two to three years.
I'm happy to put on record that I think Ricciardo's the real deal, but also that he'll be 100 points behind Vettel at the end of the year. SV's an absolutely excellent driver; I don't think he's as good a racer as some of the others, but this might be the year that he fixes that. Equally, he might never win another championship; just like Fernando Alonso he's stuck with poor equipment with little prospect of getting on equal terms for the next two to three years.
points can never be the only story. this argument belongs to the 'rules are rules' brigade. the ones who think everything is black and white.
here's a hypothetical example of why you have always consider more than points:
Hamilton could win 10 more races this year, but DNF from the remaining 6 with mechanical failures. rosberg could win 6 more (the ones where hamilton DNFs) and come second in the remaining races.
so:
rosberg 7 wins (all when his team had mechanical failures) and 12 2nd places. 391 points
hamilton 12 wins. 7 DNFs. 300 points.
in this situation, you would argue (because points are the only thing that matters) that rosberg is better than hamilton, staying true to the "points are the only story" creed. but it's not the whole picture, because int his situation (and indeed, so far this year), every time they've race, hamilton has won.
hamilton/rosberg is just an example, there are many real ones from the history of the sport (e.g. niki lauda/james hunt??)
here's a hypothetical example of why you have always consider more than points:
Hamilton could win 10 more races this year, but DNF from the remaining 6 with mechanical failures. rosberg could win 6 more (the ones where hamilton DNFs) and come second in the remaining races.
so:
rosberg 7 wins (all when his team had mechanical failures) and 12 2nd places. 391 points
hamilton 12 wins. 7 DNFs. 300 points.
in this situation, you would argue (because points are the only thing that matters) that rosberg is better than hamilton, staying true to the "points are the only story" creed. but it's not the whole picture, because int his situation (and indeed, so far this year), every time they've race, hamilton has won.
hamilton/rosberg is just an example, there are many real ones from the history of the sport (e.g. niki lauda/james hunt??)
Vettel isn't overrated. Even now, four world titles on, the one thing I never see is someone saying that Vettel is great. It's hard enough to find anyone who will even say he's the best driver on the grid right now never mind an all time great. So no, he's not overrated, because where are all the people rating him so highly?
I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
RealSquirrels said:
points can never be the only story. this argument belongs to the 'rules are rules' brigade. the ones who think everything is black and white.
here's a hypothetical example of why you have always consider more than points:
Hamilton could win 10 more races this year, but DNF from the remaining 6 with mechanical failures. rosberg could win 6 more (the ones where hamilton DNFs) and come second in the remaining races.
so:
rosberg 7 wins (all when his team had mechanical failures) and 12 2nd places. 391 points
hamilton 12 wins. 7 DNFs. 300 points.
in this situation, you would argue (because points are the only thing that matters) that rosberg is better than hamilton, staying true to the "points are the only story" creed. but it's not the whole picture, because int his situation (and indeed, so far this year), every time they've race, hamilton has won.
hamilton/rosberg is just an example, there are many real ones from the history of the sport (e.g. niki lauda/james hunt??)
Ahah .. could be Hamilton is harder on his car than his team mate ... here's a hypothetical example of why you have always consider more than points:
Hamilton could win 10 more races this year, but DNF from the remaining 6 with mechanical failures. rosberg could win 6 more (the ones where hamilton DNFs) and come second in the remaining races.
so:
rosberg 7 wins (all when his team had mechanical failures) and 12 2nd places. 391 points
hamilton 12 wins. 7 DNFs. 300 points.
in this situation, you would argue (because points are the only thing that matters) that rosberg is better than hamilton, staying true to the "points are the only story" creed. but it's not the whole picture, because int his situation (and indeed, so far this year), every time they've race, hamilton has won.
hamilton/rosberg is just an example, there are many real ones from the history of the sport (e.g. niki lauda/james hunt??)
Hence more DNFs... 
Alfanatic said:
Vettel isn't overrated. Even now, four world titles on, the one thing I never see is someone saying that Vettel is great. It's hard enough to find anyone who will even say he's the best driver on the grid right now never mind an all time great. So no, he's not overrated, because where are all the people rating him so highly?
I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
Hmmm nail on head methinks. I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
They're rarely so highly rated in their time, no?
Those drivers who are only tend to be the ones who blow away every teammate it seems...
That's a good question. How highly rated a driver is seems to depend rather little on their success rate and more on whether they are retired yet or not, and how many feats of punching above their weight they had vs. events where they were equalled or beaten. Prost's valuation went down a bit when he shared a car with Senna, a man whose reputation was set before he'd ever won a championship and then cemented tragically by his death before Schumacher had a chance to beat him. Speaking of Michael, his rep seemed higher after that one qualifying in a Jordan than it was after 7 world championships. Alonso is a perennial favourite because he won a couple but has spent the recent years appearing to drag a truckulent Ferrari around the track faster than it wanted to go, etc. etc.
I think it is singular events of clear, stellar skill achieving beyond expectation, (Senna Donington, Clark Monza, Schumi stuck in 5 th etc) coupled with the fog of time to dissolve the less talked about moments of normality that determine whether or not a driver gets viewed as great, and if that is so, this season could be Vettel's first chance to bid for greatness rather than stats since that Torro Rosso win. Let's see how he copes and what opportunities he takes advantage of.
I think it is singular events of clear, stellar skill achieving beyond expectation, (Senna Donington, Clark Monza, Schumi stuck in 5 th etc) coupled with the fog of time to dissolve the less talked about moments of normality that determine whether or not a driver gets viewed as great, and if that is so, this season could be Vettel's first chance to bid for greatness rather than stats since that Torro Rosso win. Let's see how he copes and what opportunities he takes advantage of.
Alfanatic said:
Vettel isn't overrated. Even now, four world titles on, the one thing I never see is someone saying that Vettel is great. It's hard enough to find anyone who will even say he's the best driver on the grid right now never mind an all time great. So no, he's not overrated, because where are all the people rating him so highly?
I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
Many would say, myself included, that he's the least worthy 4 times champ in the history of the sport.I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.
Exige77 said:
The point is he's done enough to win 4 WDC's but not enough to win the respect of many F1 followers.
To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
Yeah, nothing special about 4 WDCs or a mere 2 ... ask Alonso. To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
He both merits and earns huge respect .... OUTSIDE lil ol' UK.
Stick as many pins in his effigy as you like, denial here will not be enough to make his natural talent go away, "best" car or not.
Right, I'm off to throw bananas and loudly boo certain undeserving F1 types.
MGJohn said:
Exige77 said:
The point is he's done enough to win 4 WDC's but not enough to win the respect of many F1 followers.
To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
Yeah, nothing special about 4 WDCs or a mere 2 ... ask Alonso. To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
One example of how out-performing people works is a MotoGP fan of mine. Bot really interested in F1 nor it's history, said to me in 2012 how he so "gets" Alonso's rating as he attempted to push for the WDC with a such consistent persistent points run in a car that was clearly inferior to the RBR.
One can't help feel that the LH-FA battle happened at the wrong end of their careers. How much would it seem like Prost-Senna, if FA and LH had spent their careers beating teammates and found themselves paired at McLaren in 2016 as another prove who's the best match-up.
If Vettel is out to prove his mettle
then he needs to whip DR and out-perform his lesser car... and he aint...Edited by mattikake on Saturday 12th April 11:40
Edited by mattikake on Saturday 12th April 11:41
What have points to do with it?
To me the best driver, the one I would rate, goes out to win, to challenge other drivers, to try the unusual line, to attempt an overtake where those concentrating on points would hold back.
Does Vettel excite? Do you, when cramped up near the catch-fencing, anticipate a bit of a thrill when he comes past?
The points are nothing, ephemeral, a measure of something of no value.
I rated Mansell one year when, in a normally aspirated Judd-powered Williams, he got the car into second place on the grid with the best single lap I've ever seen. It was a dreadful race to watch, unless you were under cover, and unless you looked at his drive. Brilliant.
Mansell is vastly underrated as a driver. That driver was megga.
Points that season? It doesn't matter.
To me the best driver, the one I would rate, goes out to win, to challenge other drivers, to try the unusual line, to attempt an overtake where those concentrating on points would hold back.
Does Vettel excite? Do you, when cramped up near the catch-fencing, anticipate a bit of a thrill when he comes past?
The points are nothing, ephemeral, a measure of something of no value.
I rated Mansell one year when, in a normally aspirated Judd-powered Williams, he got the car into second place on the grid with the best single lap I've ever seen. It was a dreadful race to watch, unless you were under cover, and unless you looked at his drive. Brilliant.
Mansell is vastly underrated as a driver. That driver was megga.
Points that season? It doesn't matter.
MGJohn said:
Exige77 said:
The point is he's done enough to win 4 WDC's but not enough to win the respect of many F1 followers.
To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
Yeah, nothing special about 4 WDCs or a mere 2 ... ask Alonso. To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
He both merits and earns huge respect .... OUTSIDE lil ol' UK.
Stick as many pins in his effigy as you like, denial here will not be enough to make his natural talent go away, "best" car or not.
Right, I'm off to throw bananas and loudly boo certain undeserving F1 types.
Some things in life can me measured with facts (He won 4 WDC)
Some things in life are more opinion based (He doesn't seem to be up there with Many 4, 3, 2 or even single WDCs in many people minds)
Exige77 said:
The point is he's done enough to win 4 WDC's but not enough to win the respect of many F1 followers.
To get respect at that leve, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
This is what I was getting at. It's pretty hard to do something really special or impressive when you're in a car that everyone expects to win anyway. Doesn't matter how amazing Vettel's drives were, the car achieves enough of the result that any extra contribution he may have added gets lost or has no meaningful impact. He may well have been doing something special the last four years but we wouldn't notice because he didn't -indeed he could not- exceed expectations.To get respect at that leve, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.
When Senna's McLaren lost ground to the Williams FW14, he came up with Donington and a handful of other wins, results that noone expected of the car. Same with Schumacher in the Ferrari in the '90s and Alonso more recently. Vettel may have a chance to do something similar this year, or the Red Bull might just catch up anyway, but it's what he does in the first few races will either expose his talent or not. Certainly his qualifying is looking a bit special, but then in the last race Ricciardo showed him up a bit I thought. He fought hard but he did not look to have the level of dominance he enjoyed over Webber, and I think Dan scored a psychological victory there.
Still, I do think Vettel has the skills, and now the experience, to take advantage of opportunities if they arise, but time will tell.
Derek Smith said:
What have points to do with it?
To me the best driver, the one I would rate, goes out to win, to challenge other drivers, to try the unusual line, to attempt an overtake where those concentrating on points would hold back.
Does Vettel excite? Do you, when cramped up near the catch-fencing, anticipate a bit of a thrill when he comes past?
The points are nothing, ephemeral, a measure of something of no value.
I rated Mansell one year when, in a normally aspirated Judd-powered Williams, he got the car into second place on the grid with the best single lap I've ever seen. It was a dreadful race to watch, unless you were under cover, and unless you looked at his drive. Brilliant.
Mansell is vastly underrated as a driver. That driver was megga.
Points that season? It doesn't matter.
'88 was interesting but maybe the front row (or second given Senna's penalty) was the natural place for that Judd engined car as it had started from the front row in race 1 also... To me the best driver, the one I would rate, goes out to win, to challenge other drivers, to try the unusual line, to attempt an overtake where those concentrating on points would hold back.
Does Vettel excite? Do you, when cramped up near the catch-fencing, anticipate a bit of a thrill when he comes past?
The points are nothing, ephemeral, a measure of something of no value.
I rated Mansell one year when, in a normally aspirated Judd-powered Williams, he got the car into second place on the grid with the best single lap I've ever seen. It was a dreadful race to watch, unless you were under cover, and unless you looked at his drive. Brilliant.
Mansell is vastly underrated as a driver. That driver was megga.
Points that season? It doesn't matter.
I don't agree that points aren't without value if a driver, knowing reliability is suspect, drives to increased tolerances, although without being inside a team it's difficult to ever know the difference between manufactured or bad luck. That's one of the drawbacks to the current season as teams won't want to divulge all their secrets so we may be denied the chance to see the context if driver a is slower than driver b.
Edited by Kronstein on Saturday 12th April 13:59
right. no objective measurement of who is best, except for points. let me ponder that. hmm. lap time is an objective assessment of who is best that is not points. If Hamilton has retired on the last lap in Malaysia, would you seriously contend that Rosberg performed better than hamilton in that race? Because that is the argument you are making.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff