Is Vettel overrated?

[CocoUK]

...2008

Driver Championship = Hamilton (McLaren)
Constructors Championship = Ferrari

[Doink]

deadslow said:

VolvoT5 said:

When was the last time someone won a WDC without the best car on the grid? .

Fred Alonso/Renault

Just what i was about to type after reading the above.

My guess there are some RBR/Vettel worshippers on this thread

[bagman13]

deadslow said:

VolvoT5 said:

When was the last time someone won a WDC without the best car on the grid? .

Fred Alonso/Renault

Would it not be Lewis Hamilton 2008, Mclaren didn't win constructors that year.

But to repeat what has already been said, I think Vettel needs the car setup for him to really shine.

[MGJohn]

CocoUK said:

I've just had a quick hunt, his radio comments:

"My DRS is not working anymore."
and
"I'm really really slow in the straights. losing out a lot."

Your quite right - it can easily be filed under 'whinging', only data that we cannot see would tell the truth.

The same applies regarding his qualification 'issue', without data we, including the pundits, have no absolute certainty if it was causing an issue as he describes.

Stop talking logical sense. Poor form around these parts. Next you'll be suggesting the two Mercs sensibly stopped racing for the last three laps under orders. ... the very thought ....

[MGJohn]

Mind you, it's quite possible Team Red Bull have made an occasional cock-up ~ like giving Ricciardo Vettel's car...

Conspire to deceive ...

.

[Muzzer79]

The blown diffuser car really suited his style, with obvious results

I think now the regs have changed, we'll see exactly how good he is......

[OldandGrumpy]

I am a Hamilton fan.
Vettel is a very talented racer, one of the very best. He has enjoyed an advantage for the past couple of years with RBR being the car of the field.
I don't like Vettel much because despite all the smiles to hide it there is an arrogance about him. He appears to me to assume he is privileged and appears to whinge when things aren't going his way. But, he is a fantastic driver when on form, aggressive, talented and relentless. You really can't take that away from him.

[mattikake]

MGJohn said:

CocoUK said:

I've just had a quick hunt, his radio comments:

"My DRS is not working anymore."
and
"I'm really really slow in the straights. losing out a lot."

Your quite right - it can easily be filed under 'whinging', only data that we cannot see would tell the truth.

The same applies regarding his qualification 'issue', without data we, including the pundits, have no absolute certainty if it was causing an issue as he describes.

Stop talking logical sense. Poor form around these parts. Next you'll be suggesting the two Mercs sensibly stopped racing for the last three laps under orders. ... the very thought ....

Well having just watched the highlights and concentrated on what the rest of the field were doing, not just the Mercs, it could be that SV did have some genuine issues.

Still, DR was up with him before they hit, it's only when he was getting too close to SV that the problems were 'reported'...

[Fire99]

I would say Vettel is very good but not exceptional. Definitely not as good as his number of championships may suggest.
This year may be the first 'test' year for him, since Torro Rosso days and so far Ricciardo is keeping him honest. I would suggest Ricciardo is very good too but not one of the absolute best, yet.

[MGJohn]

Fire99 said:

I would say Vettel is very good but not exceptional. Definitely not as good as his number of championships may suggest.
This year may be the first 'test' year for him, since Torro Rosso days and so far Ricciardo is keeping him honest. I would suggest Ricciardo is very good too but not one of the absolute best, yet.

Good use of the word "yet" there ... He has impressed me in all his efforts so far this season. Could be the real deal as they say.

Three races in I'm glad to see the hard core of anti-Vettel types are already writing him off after relatively poor showings this season. A severe attack of wishful thinking in my opinion. However, as we all know, if his form improves during the rest of the season it will of course be solely down to the car..

It's interesting to see Vettel having to mix it with the lower grid more usual suspects. Hope that is maintained for at least a few more races. Real added interest that.

Form is transient and of less importance than natural class. The latter is permanent and will come to the top when circumstances allow.

There again, who of the non-Mercedes powered cars has got closest to Hamilton and Rosberg in qualifying, splitting them even? Second thoughts ~ who has got closest to the two works Mercedes in any car ?.... Give you three guesses although only one should be necessary if you've been paying attention. ...

Fascinating season so far and looks like continuing that way even if the two Mercs disappear into the distance every race.

[williamp]

He is very quick around the top gear circuit....

[longblackcoat]

OldandGrumpy said:

I am a Hamilton fan.
Vettel is a very talented racer, one of the very best. He has enjoyed an advantage for the past couple of years with RBR being the car of the field.
I don't like Vettel much because despite all the smiles to hide it there is an arrogance about him. He appears to me to assume he is privileged and appears to whinge when things aren't going his way. But, he is a fantastic driver when on form, aggressive, talented and relentless. You really can't take that away from him.

I think he's been slightly flattered in his achievements due to the car, and that he's just not as good as a 4 x WDC should be. At the same time, I like him tremendously as an individual - he's funny, self-deprecating, and, typically, when interviewed after yesterday's race simply said that he wasn't fast enough. No complaints about the car/tyres/ERC ...... just manned up without whinging.

[Kronstein]

Was Alonso overrated when outqualified by Massa last season...

Your assumption is ludicrous: first, small, meaningless sample size; second, RB is not yet competitive nor reliable (making comparisons more questionable) so we can only look at two races excluding Australia and Vettel was measurably slower than RIC in a straight line yesterday /running to a different strategy which may well be less optimal. Third, the current level of F1 is extremely high including all the drivers so RIC could well be extremely good which hardly negates anything Vettel has achieved to date - Senna was outqualified a few times by Berger.

Good to see Vettel prove to be an excellent team player in the race.

[OldandGrumpy]

longblackcoat said:

I think he's been slightly flattered in his achievements due to the car, and that he's just not as good as a 4 x WDC should be. At the same time, I like him tremendously as an individual - he's funny, self-deprecating, and, typically, when interviewed after yesterday's race simply said that he wasn't fast enough. No complaints about the car/tyres/ERC ...... just manned up without whinging.

His pr face is convincing. He sounds very different in the cockpit when things are going wrong.
I would like to revise my opinion of him but I remain suspicious. I do hope I am wrong.

[gt6]

It is easy to say things when the first races are being dominated by another team with a clearly superior car but after 3 races only we should not write him off, all the greatest drivers had bad years and good years

[RemarkLima]

I said too early to tell, simply because it is.

As MGJohn said, only Vettel and Riccardo have been at the sharp end of qualifying so once they get a bit more power from the Renault they're going to be right up there I think.

I also think that Vettel is going to win this year only because of the double points at Abu Dhabi

[oyster]

Doink said:

VolvoT5 said:

DR is certainly more capable of giving him a run for his money than Webber ever was, however I don't think anyone who has won 4 championships can ever be considered 'over rated'.

You forget during those 4 years he had the best car on the grid which made his job considerably easier, now if he'd of won those 4 WDC in a Sauber then you'd have a point

2013 Vettel wins in the best car
2012 Vettel wins in the best car
2011 Vettel wins in the best car
2010 Vettel wins in the best car
2009 Button wins in the best car
2008 Hamnilton wins in the best car
2007 Raikonnen wins in the 2nd best car
2006 Alonso wins in the best car
2005 Alonso wins in the best car
2004 Schumacher wins in the best car
2003 Schumacher wins in the best car
2002 Schumacher wins in the best car
2001 Schumacher wins in the best car
2000 Schumacher wins in the best car
1999 Hakkinen wins in the 2nd best car
1998 Hakkinen wins in the best car
1997 Villeneuve wins in the best car
1996 Hill wins in the best car
1995 Schumacher wins in the best car
1994 Schumacher wins in the 2nd best car
1993 Prost wins in the best car
1992 Mansell wins in the best car
1991 Senna wins in the best car
1990 Senna wins in the best car
1989 Prost wins in the best car
1988 Senna wins in the best car

I think your point is moot.

[Agent Orange]

oyster said:

2009 Button wins in the best car

Just because it's been at least a week or two since I posted some love for JB.

He didn't win it in the best car - that car was only the best for the first half of the season. There after it was awful and he had to drag what points he could from each race.

26 July 2009
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula...

During Sunday's race, Button was heard asking his team over the radio: "How can this car be so bad at the moment?"

He said later: "Our car isn't driving as well as it did at the start of the season. There's obviously an issue."

As for Vettel. I've seen enough this season to realise he's the real deal. He kept Nico honest the other week. 4 x WDC in admittedly a car that was light years ahead of anything else might make things easier but to be at the top for 4 years is no mean accomplishment. The psychology of the man says champion to keep that up for 4 years. Mika Hakkinen talks about how 2 years at the top nearly broke him.

Riciardo's moves on him yesterday did make me sit up. I've not seen anything from Riciadro that would make me think him "top 5" but he bullied Vettel in the closing stages and in areas that weren't DRS zone. Vettel also "broke" when Jenson chased him down to to win in Canada 2011.

Maybe that is Vettel's weakness? Not that he can't overtake but that he cannot defend?

Then again when you've been used to destroying all opponents defence isn't an often used skill.

He'll stick the car on the podium for a couple of the slower races this year. ie. Monaco, Singapore etc.

Is Vettel overrated? Yes but that doesn't mean he isn't a seriously good F1 driver. He's just not the second coming.

Edited by Agent Orange on Monday 7th April 11:17

[Composite Guru]

CocoUK said:

Doink said:

You forget during those 4 years he had the best car on the grid which made his job considerably easier, now if he'd of won those 4 WDC in a Sauber then you'd have a point

That old chestnut hey!
YOU forget during those 4 years he did NOT always have the best car on the grid etc etc

I love these comments about "the best car winning". I can't remember a championship being won in a rubbish car.

As for this year it seems like Merc has the best car so Hamilton is winning races because he has the best car obviously.

[wanacoop]

It's just nice to see him having a competitive team mate, and being mid pack. It was just boring for so many of the races when Vettel won over the past 4 years. What i hated the most of all, was when the RB was clearly the fastest car, and Seb would get pole, again, and everyone was going crazy about how fast he is, how did he manage that etc.. when it was clear that any of the top ten, could get pole in that car. All the bbc team used to gush over him every pole, win, fastest lap, i just couldn't wait to see seb in anything less than the best car to see if he actualy is this 'jedi' over 1 lap.

To keep this theme going, i noticed Coulthard saying after yesterdays race, that Ham could be the fastest driver in f1 at the moment!! What, he's all of a sudden improved, and now Seb is past it!?? No Dave, Ham is just in the best car, but he's always been amazingly quick.