Is Vettel overrated?
Poll: Is Vettel overrated?
Total Members Polled: 458
Discussion
SuperDude said:
Such glib dismissal of a top flight world class racing driver can only be met one way (if not totally ignored, which I should have done)
Mark Webber was one of the most respected racing drivers on that grid. He fought hard and fair, and was lightning fast. His failing during the latter parts of his F1 career were down to Vettel having lightning one lap pace, plus the backing of the entire team. The overtakes and accidents he was involved in were, frankly, breath taking at times. I'm talking his move on Alonso at Spa, or the times he's flipped his car at high speed - and yet he consistantly(sic) got back in and gave it everything. Even, at one stage, with a broken leg.
You don't rate him as a driver? Fine. You do that. Meanwhile the rest of us will appreciate that racing, at any level, does not begin and end with the driver. There's more to it. Mark Webber didn't get the job done, we all know this, but tell me you don't rate him, that just says more about your appreciation of the sport than it does of the driver.
+1Mark Webber was one of the most respected racing drivers on that grid. He fought hard and fair, and was lightning fast. His failing during the latter parts of his F1 career were down to Vettel having lightning one lap pace, plus the backing of the entire team. The overtakes and accidents he was involved in were, frankly, breath taking at times. I'm talking his move on Alonso at Spa, or the times he's flipped his car at high speed - and yet he consistantly(sic) got back in and gave it everything. Even, at one stage, with a broken leg.
You don't rate him as a driver? Fine. You do that. Meanwhile the rest of us will appreciate that racing, at any level, does not begin and end with the driver. There's more to it. Mark Webber didn't get the job done, we all know this, but tell me you don't rate him, that just says more about your appreciation of the sport than it does of the driver.
SlipStream77 said:
SuperDude said:
Such glib dismissal of a top flight world class racing driver can only be met one way (if not totally ignored, which I should have done)
Mark Webber was one of the most respected racing drivers on that grid. He fought hard and fair, and was lightning fast. His failing during the latter parts of his F1 career were down to Vettel having lightning one lap pace, plus the backing of the entire team. The overtakes and accidents he was involved in were, frankly, breath taking at times. I'm talking his move on Alonso at Spa, or the times he's flipped his car at high speed - and yet he consistantly(sic) got back in and gave it everything. Even, at one stage, with a broken leg.
You don't rate him as a driver? Fine. You do that. Meanwhile the rest of us will appreciate that racing, at any level, does not begin and end with the driver. There's more to it. Mark Webber didn't get the job done, we all know this, but tell me you don't rate him, that just says more about your appreciation of the sport than it does of the driver.
+1Mark Webber was one of the most respected racing drivers on that grid. He fought hard and fair, and was lightning fast. His failing during the latter parts of his F1 career were down to Vettel having lightning one lap pace, plus the backing of the entire team. The overtakes and accidents he was involved in were, frankly, breath taking at times. I'm talking his move on Alonso at Spa, or the times he's flipped his car at high speed - and yet he consistantly(sic) got back in and gave it everything. Even, at one stage, with a broken leg.
You don't rate him as a driver? Fine. You do that. Meanwhile the rest of us will appreciate that racing, at any level, does not begin and end with the driver. There's more to it. Mark Webber didn't get the job done, we all know this, but tell me you don't rate him, that just says more about your appreciation of the sport than it does of the driver.
I think people have too much tendency to assume that a driver being better in one car will mean they're better in another. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it would be quite possible that Vettel was genuinely the best driver on the grid in the old V8 powered cars and isn't even in the top five in the new cars simply due to personal preference in how the cars drive.
kambites said:
I think people have too much tendency to assume that a driver being better in one car will mean they're better in another. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it would be quite possible that Vettel was genuinely the best driver on the grid in the old V8 powered cars and isn't even in the top five in the new cars simply due to personal preference in how the cars drive.
Bottom line.... His a 4 TIMES WORLD CHAMP.
He SHOULD be able to adjust and get the best out of a mini metro if need be.... (others like alonso/Lewis can) BUT he can't, hence why everyone's questioning his abilities.
Edited by Joffery666 on Sunday 20th April 20:54
blasos said:
mattikake said:
IainT said:
Interesting discussion around why Seb is being outperformed by Daniel...
Looks like Seb's struggling to get to grips with the lower down-force this year but Daniel is more used to the lack and has adjusted better. That might account for some of the difference today but it looked like DR was substantially faster for the bulk of the race.
IMO this is a kop-out being spouted by the pundits to excuse their over-zealous loving of him in recent seasons.Looks like Seb's struggling to get to grips with the lower down-force this year but Daniel is more used to the lack and has adjusted better. That might account for some of the difference today but it looked like DR was substantially faster for the bulk of the race.
Is a four-time World Champion overrated? By definition, no. Vettel stands alongside other multiple World Champions as one of the finest drivers in the history of F1.
He has, however, hit a bump in the road this season largely due to the removal of exhaust-blown aerodynamics. Over a 4 year period, he adapted his driving style and worked with Red Bull's engineers to exploit this technology better than anyone else. That's what great champions have always done.
Now the exhaust-blowing has gone, so he has to change his technique again to compensate. Can he figure it out, adapt and beat his new team-mate? We'll see, but it would take a brave man to bet against him.
He has, however, hit a bump in the road this season largely due to the removal of exhaust-blown aerodynamics. Over a 4 year period, he adapted his driving style and worked with Red Bull's engineers to exploit this technology better than anyone else. That's what great champions have always done.
Now the exhaust-blowing has gone, so he has to change his technique again to compensate. Can he figure it out, adapt and beat his new team-mate? We'll see, but it would take a brave man to bet against him.
RichB said:
.... Clearly exceptional racing drivers should be able to perform in any decent car but in these days of sanitised racing we'll never know.
.
Good grief! Salient comment on a PH F1 thread ... .
SALIENT CONTENT 100%
Very amusing how all the naysayers are already eagerly seeking to justify their stance ... after all of four races. Case proven apparently ...
PSSSSST! My favourite driver is better than your'n.
Here's the situation.
Alonso is fantastic: He's been alongside plenty of other top notch drivers, and shown them his heels. People rate Bottas (Frank Williams very much so, and he's managed a few good drivers), and yet alongside Massa they're pretty evenly matched.
Massa was schooled time and again by Alonso.
Hamilton is fantastic: Even Alonso will say so now having raced alongside him. He had more pace than Button (despite scoring less points) who showed Barichello a thing or two. Who generally kept Schumi honest.
Vettel is a totally unknown quantity: He pulled a Toro Rosso over the line in first place in Monza, but was lapping only marginally quicker than his teammate (can't even remember who now, but it wasn't anyone particularly quick and they reckon it would have been a 1-2 without said teammate's issues).
He's been side by side a handful of OK drivers, none of whom have been particularly rated. Webber, as reliable, mature and respected as he was, was never regarded as one of the greats (probably not even top five on the grid at any given time.)
And now DR is showing him how to drive. I'm not wanting to take anything away from Riciardo, but he was pretty well matched previously. This isn't to say that the past four races are truly representative of DR and SV's respective talents but surely Seb would be a little closer if he really was that good?!
So the problem is that we'll never really know Vettel's true pace until he goes alongside a known quantity. I don't think RB or SV will opt to let this happen. I don't doubt Seb's commitment, or his attitude and desire to understand the car. But this season is certainly making me start to doubt his talent.
Alonso is fantastic: He's been alongside plenty of other top notch drivers, and shown them his heels. People rate Bottas (Frank Williams very much so, and he's managed a few good drivers), and yet alongside Massa they're pretty evenly matched.
Massa was schooled time and again by Alonso.
Hamilton is fantastic: Even Alonso will say so now having raced alongside him. He had more pace than Button (despite scoring less points) who showed Barichello a thing or two. Who generally kept Schumi honest.
Vettel is a totally unknown quantity: He pulled a Toro Rosso over the line in first place in Monza, but was lapping only marginally quicker than his teammate (can't even remember who now, but it wasn't anyone particularly quick and they reckon it would have been a 1-2 without said teammate's issues).
He's been side by side a handful of OK drivers, none of whom have been particularly rated. Webber, as reliable, mature and respected as he was, was never regarded as one of the greats (probably not even top five on the grid at any given time.)
And now DR is showing him how to drive. I'm not wanting to take anything away from Riciardo, but he was pretty well matched previously. This isn't to say that the past four races are truly representative of DR and SV's respective talents but surely Seb would be a little closer if he really was that good?!
So the problem is that we'll never really know Vettel's true pace until he goes alongside a known quantity. I don't think RB or SV will opt to let this happen. I don't doubt Seb's commitment, or his attitude and desire to understand the car. But this season is certainly making me start to doubt his talent.
Edited by DHB07 on Sunday 20th April 22:21
leglessAlex said:
Would Red Bull really have kept him on if he wasn't that good?
In follow up to my above post, the issue is that no-one, including RB, really know how good he is. They just know he's been quicker than his mediocre teammates and that his telemetry including throttle dump and pickup has been better than his teammates' too. He's a known quantity to them. He brings publicity and speaks their language. And he's helped bring them 4 world titles. Horner and Marko adore him. They have no reason to let him go.
Personally, I think he's going to struggle to get a drive anywhere else after RB.
DHB07 said:
leglessAlex said:
Would Red Bull really have kept him on if he wasn't that good?
In follow up to my above post, the issue is that no-one, including RB, really know how good he is. They just know he's been quicker than his mediocre teammates and that his telemetry including throttle dump and pickup has been better than his teammates' too. He's a known quantity to them. He brings publicity and speaks their language. And he's helped bring them 4 world titles. Horner and Marko adore him. They have no reason to let him go.
Personally, I think he's going to struggle to get a drive anywhere else after RB.
It's an interesting parallel. It was said that Webber had difficulty adjusting to the way the RBR car drove during the championship years - getting on the throttle stupid early on account of it vacuuming itself to the road and just letting it get on with things was a bit counter-intuitive. It now seems that Vettel is having trouble adjusting to the way that the new cars need to be driven; there's a lot more torque low-down which means the cars get squirrelly, which is the complete opposite of what he had last year.
It's the mark of a truly great driver that they can get good performances out of cars they don't like - of the current drivers I think you can only really put Alonso and Hamilton in that box.
It's the mark of a truly great driver that they can get good performances out of cars they don't like - of the current drivers I think you can only really put Alonso and Hamilton in that box.
Vettel is good. Very good.
But he has never been as good as some say he is. He has enjoyed a perfect combination of car and team, optimised to suit him. That in itself is quite an achievement, but it reminds us that these guys are simply jockeys and there are a lot of complex components in play to ensure success.
Change is a great leveller. It reveals the truth. And the truth is that Vettel is a very, very good driver.
Hamilton is similar in some respects to Vettel, although perhaps even more extreme in terms of his ability to be leaps and bounds ahead, given the right car.
The most impressive drivers for me are those that get decent results even when the car isn't right. You have to hand it to Alonso in that respect. I'm not really a fan, but you have to respect his abilities. Alonso has been very impressive. I think Hulkenberg has similar qualities.
But he has never been as good as some say he is. He has enjoyed a perfect combination of car and team, optimised to suit him. That in itself is quite an achievement, but it reminds us that these guys are simply jockeys and there are a lot of complex components in play to ensure success.
Change is a great leveller. It reveals the truth. And the truth is that Vettel is a very, very good driver.
Hamilton is similar in some respects to Vettel, although perhaps even more extreme in terms of his ability to be leaps and bounds ahead, given the right car.
The most impressive drivers for me are those that get decent results even when the car isn't right. You have to hand it to Alonso in that respect. I'm not really a fan, but you have to respect his abilities. Alonso has been very impressive. I think Hulkenberg has similar qualities.
mattikake said:
IainT said:
Interesting discussion around why Seb is being outperformed by Daniel...
Looks like Seb's struggling to get to grips with the lower down-force this year but Daniel is more used to the lack and has adjusted better. That might account for some of the difference today but it looked like DR was substantially faster for the bulk of the race.
IMO this is a kop-out being spouted by the pundits to excuse their over-zealous loving of him in recent seasons. Neither driver has suggested either.Looks like Seb's struggling to get to grips with the lower down-force this year but Daniel is more used to the lack and has adjusted better. That might account for some of the difference today but it looked like DR was substantially faster for the bulk of the race.
The job of a driver is to get the max out of the machinery regardless of the machinery. If they can't do this, then it only serves to highlight further failings, not viable excuses.
OTOH Maybe this tosh explains why Vettel could only manage a 1:44.0 in the downforceless reasonably priced car and Lewis could do a 1:42.9?
He is suffering from the lack of that blown diffuser IMO.
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