Is Vettel overrated?

[RXED]

Well said.

[NRS]

RXED said:

I agree, but it was Seb winning, not the highly rated Webber! No one said how rubbish Webber was in all those years. Frankly, I am not sure why RB kept him so long having seen what DR is like.

Seb is a class act. If anything, he is under rated by people who claim it is the car/Newey winning.

So, come the end of the season, will these Seb haters be saying that its the car/8 odd designers/engine that won this championship, or will they bang on about how Hamilton is the best driver? I do wonder!

I think people did mention how Webber could not adapt to the style that Vettel used so successfully when the car was set up right (getting on the throttle early). When the car was not working that way they were equal/ Webber was better.

Basically in a lot of the time Vettel was 4x champion he only had a competition of 1, who was his teammate that could not adapt to driving in another style. I think Vettel is a good driver with the right car, and consistant. However to say he's much better than the others when the car was that good means you should soon be saying Hamilton and Rosberg are therefore much better that Vettel now, if they become 4x champions over the next few years?

I think some people will be silly and say it's "only" Hamilton, but most will be sensible and recognise there is no way any of the other teams can compete with the two Mercedes drivers. Hamilton has so far shown he's better than Rosberg, although it's still very early.

[RealSquirrels]

all of the other WDCs in the field have had WDCs as team mates.

nothing more to say really.

[MGJohn]

RXED said:

Anyway, I am not here to argue, I just dont understand how we keep coming back to Vettel and his supposedly lack of skill in a race car!

I do and I strongly suspect you really do too ...

[Rude-boy]

RealSquirrels said:

all of the other WDCs in the field have had WDCs as team mates.

nothing more to say really.

An interesting and relevant point I think.

Just as we can't really judge pre retirement Schumacher as well as we'd like as he never had a seriously rated driver alongside him at Ferrari. Sure there were some damn quick guys but Eddie, Rubens and Flipflip are hardly spoken of in the same reverential tones as Alonso, Prost, Senna, et al.

Then is it part of the mark of the very best that they stop anyone getting the same tools to do the job as they have and that is a small part of their skills? F1 is an entire life sport, not just a day job.

[lbc]

RXED said:

I just dont understand how we keep coming back to Vettel and his supposedly lack of skill in a race car!

Because Vettel has no skill in a race car, probably.

[oyster]

RealSquirrels said:

all of the other WDCs in the field have had WDCs as team mates.

nothing more to say really.

But none of them won their championships against WDCs in the team?

Alonso against Fisichella.
Raikkonen against Massa.
Hamilton against Kovalainen.
Button against Barrichello.
Vettel against Webber.

WDC against journeyman really.

[RemarkLima]

oyster said:

Raikkonen against Massa.

Massa missed his WDC by 1 point to Hamilton - how would the world look upon those two had Glock not span off / had a moment?

Hamilton would be "just a journeyman" with no WDC to his name, and Massa would have significantly higher stock.

Funny old world.

ETA: Didn't Raikkonen only just beat Hamilton? So surely Raikkonen only just scrapes in there too right?

[MGJohn]

RemarkLima said:

oyster said:

Raikkonen against Massa.

Massa missed his WDC by 1 point to Hamilton - how would the world look upon those two had Glock not span off / had a moment?

Hamilton would be "just a journeyman" with no WDC to his name, and Massa would have significantly higher stock.

Funny old world.

ETA: Didn't Raikkonen only just beat Hamilton? So surely Raikkonen only just scrapes in there too right?

All quite correct. Massa's assist secured Ferrari's last driver WDC. He nearly secured his own WDC ... Glock stopped that.

Funny old game F1 racing. If PHers need proof, look how rubbish Vettel is. Rarely delivers.

[RichB]

Mojocvh said:

NR was faster than LH [+but couldn't/didn't get past

What because he got fastest lap? Hamilton passed Rosberg and opened up a 10 second gap. Had it negated by the safety car period and then finished ahead of Rosberg again. He was faster over the course of the race by approximately 12 seconds.

[mattikake]

Interesting views.

Vettel kind of reminds me of Nelson Piquet Snr. Very fast, very consistent. Able to win at a canter when he had the car and team around him. Indeed most of both SV's and NP's race wins were boring dominating affairs where they ran off into the distance with a big car/setup advantage over the rest. Talent/luck/teamwork involved in achieving that and credit should be due where appropriate. But NP was perhaps not regarded as "the best" and slightly lacking in his race craft - his ability to battle or win from behind wasn't common. Dutch GP 1980 and Hungary 1986 perhaps the only notable races, although very good they were.

Both were worthy WDC's but never rated as the best in their time during the time or in hindsight on critical analysis. Also interesting that neither are/were popular with the fans. I guess part of that comes from the manner of their wins. The people prefer a battler.

Difficult to say exactly why NP is not highly rated. NP was able to soundly beat "good" teammates - occasional race winners like Patrese or maybe even out-perform Lauda as a rookie in the same car (a bad car and Niki was never the fastest in a bad car), but was ultimately beaten by higher calibre teammates like Mansell and Schumacher. NP still racked up 3 WDC's, a lot of wins and a lot of poles.

The best teammate Vettel has had is Webber - another Patrese - an occasional race-winner.

[entropy]

mattikake said:

Interesting views.

Vettel kind of reminds me of Nelson Piquet Snr. Very fast, very consistent. Able to win at a canter when he had the car and team around him. Indeed most of both SV's and NP's race wins were boring dominating affairs where they ran off into the distance with a big car/setup advantage over the rest. Talent/luck/teamwork involved in achieving that and credit should be due where appropriate. But NP was perhaps not regarded as "the best" and slightly lacking in his race craft - his ability to battle or win from behind wasn't common. Dutch GP 1980 and Hungary 1986 perhaps the only notable races, although very good they were.

Both were worthy WDC's but never rated as the best in their time during the time or in hindsight on critical analysis. Also interesting that neither are/were popular with the fans. I guess part of that comes from the manner of their wins. The people prefer a battler.

Difficult to say exactly why NP is not highly rated. NP was able to soundly beat "good" teammates - occasional race winners like Patrese or maybe even out-perform Lauda as a rookie in the same car (a bad car and Niki was never the fastest in a bad car), but was ultimately beaten by higher calibre teammates like Mansell and Schumacher. NP still racked up 3 WDC's, a lot of wins and a lot of poles.

The best teammate Vettel has had is Webber - another Patrese - an occasional race-winner.

Piquet is/has been tainted by being #1 at Brabham, the heated rivalry with Mansell and tailing off at Benetton and motivated by money.

Whether he was better or not/equal to Mansell is debatable, partly because of points system then and 1987 season Piquet had a horrendous and fiery crash at Imola and Piquet has said he was suffering physically for the rest of that season.

Lacking racecraft? 1983 South African GP he controversialy had the best car. When he heard Prost retired he backed off and made sure he was in the points. Afterwards he got a rollocking off Bernie for not winning, aand as you pointed out most love a battler and a winner.

He finished third in 1990 behind Senna & Prost - a bit like Alonso & Hulk in recent years

[slipstream 1985]

MGJohn said:

RemarkLima said:

oyster said:

Raikkonen against Massa.

Massa missed his WDC by 1 point to Hamilton - how would the world look upon those two had Glock not span off / had a moment?

Hamilton would be "just a journeyman" with no WDC to his name, and Massa would have significantly higher stock.

Funny old world.

ETA: Didn't Raikkonen only just beat Hamilton? So surely Raikkonen only just scrapes in there too right?

All quite correct. Massa's assist secured Ferrari's last driver WDC. He nearly secured his own WDC ... Glock stopped that.

Funny old game F1 racing. If PHers need proof, look how rubbish Vettel is. Rarely delivers.

if you take away lewis's wdc to give to massa then you have to give lewis the previous years one when raikkonen won it with alot of help from his teammate

[NRS]

MGJohn said:

All quite correct. Massa's assist secured Ferrari's last driver WDC. He nearly secured his own WDC ... Glock stopped that.

Funny old game F1 racing. If PHers need proof, look how rubbish Vettel is. Rarely delivers.

The problem is you have never seen Vettel in a seriously bad car. You can point to the Torro Rosso win, but then again he's not the first driver to have done very well in a relatively poor car. I think this season will be very good at shutting up the nay sayers if he is one of the best, and will show how "bad" he is if he is not the best driver. As mentioned he seems to be very consistant, very good when the car is set up correctly and so on. MGJohn - what will you say about Vettel if at the end of the season he finishes lower than DR? Will he still be the best?

RichB said:

Mojocvh said:

NR was faster than LH [+but couldn't/didn't get past

What because he got fastest lap? Hamilton passed Rosberg and opened up a 10 second gap. Had it negated by the safety car period and then finished ahead of Rosberg again. He was faster over the course of the race by approximately 12 seconds.

You missed the part where Rosberg was on the better tyres, where Lewis lost his advantage due to the safety car. Perhaps a bit of an overstatement, but DC on the BBC said he thought it was one of Hamilton's best drivers.

[MGJohn]

slipstream 1985 said:

if you take away lewis's wdc to give to massa then you have to give lewis the previous years one when raikkonen won it with alot of help from his teammate

Correct on both counts. I enjoy British Successes and Hamilton's sole WDC was one I really enjoyed. He was still the 'new boy' and his form had not yet fully been revealed. I doubt many cheered louder than I did when Glock's incident took the WDC away from Massa and Hamilton secured his only WDC .. so far. Whilst at the same time felt a pang of sadness watching the Massa family as the circumstances worked against them. That was sad.

NRS said:

MGJohn - what will you say about Vettel if at the end of the season he finishes lower than DR? Will he still be the best?

Even if Vettel fails miserably and is 100 points behind his talented team mate come the end of the season, it is still possible that Vettel is the better.

Still be the best you ask ? None of the drivers during the past two decades would I ever consider the best. Seen them all since the days of Moss and Fangio. Irrespective of the history and statistics, the sanitisation of the tracks and the inherently superior safety designs built into in the cars negates any comparison rendering any of little credence and value. Unworthy even.

[RealSquirrels]

MGJohn said:

Even if Vettel fails miserably and is 100 points behind his talented team mate come the end of the season, it is still possible that Vettel is the better.

i thought this precise argument was nonsense, at least everyone who was arguing that button is better than hamilton would say so. ("points is all that count" etc.0

[Agent Orange]

RemarkLima said:

Massa missed his WDC by 1 point to Hamilton - how would the world look upon those two had Glock not span off / had a moment?

Hamilton would be "just a journeyman" with no WDC to his name, and Massa would have significantly higher stock.

Funny old world.

ETA: Didn't Raikkonen only just beat Hamilton? So surely Raikkonen only just scrapes in there too right?

If/buts/maybe - but that WDC was never just about Glock being on the wrong tyres.

Maybe if Massa didn't crash into Coulthard in the opening race of the season
if he didn't spin off the track countless times at the Silverstone GP that year and finish last
if Ferrari hadn't screwed up Massa refuelling in Canada
if Ferrari hadn't screwed up Massa's pit stop in Singapore and he hadn't driven the entire pit lane before realising he was carrying half the refuelling hose
if Massa didn't spin off the track in Singapore he'd have picked up a couple of points rather than none?

Maybe it would have been wrapped up before Brazil?

Then again maybe if Hamilton didn't receive a penalty when he and Kimi were in a class of their own at Spa 2008 Massa would have gone to Brazil with the WDC lost.

Way I see it Massa and Ferrari threw the WDC away a long time before Brazil. They were closely matched just Massa and his team made more mistakes than Hamilton.

[MGJohn]

RealSquirrels said:

MGJohn said:

Even if Vettel fails miserably and is 100 points behind his talented team mate come the end of the season, it is still possible that Vettel is the better.

i thought this precise argument was nonsense, at least everyone who was arguing that button is better than hamilton would say so. ("points is all that count" etc.0

You wouldn't by any chance be Hamilton's No.1 Fan in the known Universe by any chance R.S. ? ... Merely a rumour. Which I'm about to start ... Have a nice one ...

[IainT]

MGJohn said:

RealSquirrels said:

MGJohn said:

Even if Vettel fails miserably and is 100 points behind his talented team mate come the end of the season, it is still possible that Vettel is the better.

i thought this precise argument was nonsense, at least everyone who was arguing that button is better than hamilton would say so. ("points is all that count" etc.0

You wouldn't by any chance be Hamilton's No.1 Fan in the known Universe by any chance R.S. ? ... Merely a rumour. Which I'm about to start ... Have a nice one ...

Pretty sure I recall you arguing that it's the points that count when Jens and Lewis were team-mates John although I may be mistaken and do so humbly beg forgiveness if that is the case.

[oyster]

RemarkLima said:

oyster said:

Raikkonen against Massa.

Massa missed his WDC by 1 point to Hamilton - how would the world look upon those two had Glock not span off / had a moment?

Hamilton would be "just a journeyman" with no WDC to his name, and Massa would have significantly higher stock.

Funny old world.

ETA: Didn't Raikkonen only just beat Hamilton? So surely Raikkonen only just scrapes in there too right?

Yes when I was writing that list 2007 was the slightly odd one out in that Raikkonen that year didn't finsh far ahead of Massa either. Yet in all the other years the WDC obliterated theirt team mate.