Was Hamilton underrated

Was Hamilton underrated

Author
Discussion

HarryW

15,150 posts

268 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
superkartracer said:
...
Nico Rosberg - Avg Speed 195.450 Fastest Lap 1:40.402 Lap 39

Lewis Hamilton - Avg Speed 193.916 Fastest Lap 1:41.196 lap 42
......
Might sound like a daft question but how does finishing behind the winner over the same race distance give you a higher average speed as you obviously have a higher time, V=D/t?

superkartracer

8,959 posts

221 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
HarryW said:
superkartracer said:
...
Nico Rosberg - Avg Speed 195.450 Fastest Lap 1:40.402 Lap 39

Lewis Hamilton - Avg Speed 193.916 Fastest Lap 1:41.196 lap 42
......
Might sound like a daft question but how does finishing behind the winner over the same race distance give you a higher average speed as you obviously have a higher time, V=D/t?
It's for one lap//

So basically Nico drove the same car faster than Lewis, sadly for him he started 4th and was crashed into and driving blind ( data wise ) so not a bad effort really. But at the end of the day Lewis won, Nico was still faster tho, maybe Lewis held back as leading but it shows there is far more speed in that machine.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 13:06

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
superkartracer said:
It's for one lap//

So basically Nico drove the same car faster than Lewis, sadly for him he started 4th and was crashed into and driving blind ( data wise ) so not a bad effort really. But at the end of the day Lewis won, Nico was still faster tho, maybe Lewis held back as leading but it shows there is far more speed in that machine.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 13:06
Probably not a reliable variable but Lewis's fuel useage seems to bear out he's driving within himself.

mattikake

5,057 posts

198 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
entropy said:
Gaz. said:
Do you mean squaring off a corner?
AKA late apex. It's nothing new.
The apex is still in the middle of the corner. If anything from the moment of turning, starting toward the apex is actually made earlier, so it's effectively early apex.


entropy said:
From Nigel Mansell's autobiography, p.33 hardback edition:

"My style is to brake hard and late and turn in very early to the apex of the corner, carrying a lot of speed with me. I then slow the car down again in the corner and drive out of it. Because I go for the early apex, I probably use less road than many other drivers. In fact if you put a dripping paint pot on the back of my car and on the back of another driver's car around a lap of a circuit like Monaco, you would probably find that my lap is 20 30 metres shorter than theirs"

"To drive like this I need a car that has a very responsive front end and turns in immediately and doesn't slide at the front"
What is faster is not the shorter line, but that more time is spent on the throttle on the exit which means the speed on the following straight is marginally faster - this is where the time is gained. The shorter distance is offset by the lower apex speed - the time to negotiate the corner works out to be the same.

Try it next time you're on a track. Suddenly overtaking in and out of corners is easy and everyone will start complaining that you have a power advantage...

Speedy11

516 posts

207 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
superkartracer said:
HarryW said:
superkartracer said:
...
Nico Rosberg - Avg Speed 195.450 Fastest Lap 1:40.402 Lap 39

Lewis Hamilton - Avg Speed 193.916 Fastest Lap 1:41.196 lap 42
......
Might sound like a daft question but how does finishing behind the winner over the same race distance give you a higher average speed as you obviously have a higher time, V=D/t?
It's for one lap//

So basically Nico drove the same car faster than Lewis, sadly for him he started 4th and was crashed into and driving blind ( data wise ) so not a bad effort really. But at the end of the day Lewis won, Nico was still faster tho, maybe Lewis held back as leading but it shows there is far more speed in that machine.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 13:06
He started 4th because he was slow in qualifying, he wasn't crashed into, it was the other way around, Nico crashed into Bottas, Nico's fastest lap was because he was pushing to catch Alonso, Lewis was relatively slow in his final stint (but his stint was still faster than Nico's) because he had no need to go fast.

Lewis was able to go further on his tyres, use ~4kgs less fuel than Nico and his stint times were much faster.

RealSquirrels

11,327 posts

191 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
superkartracer said:
It's for one lap//

So basically Nico drove the same car faster than Lewis, sadly for him he started 4th and was crashed into and driving blind ( data wise ) so not a bad effort really. But at the end of the day Lewis won, Nico was still faster tho, maybe Lewis held back as leading but it shows there is far more speed in that machine.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 13:06
lewis said he had to speed up for the last few laps because his tyres were starting to lose temperature... which shows you how fast he was going...

Alfanatic

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
RealSquirrels said:
superkartracer said:
It's for one lap//

So basically Nico drove the same car faster than Lewis, sadly for him he started 4th and was crashed into and driving blind ( data wise ) so not a bad effort really. But at the end of the day Lewis won, Nico was still faster tho, maybe Lewis held back as leading but it shows there is far more speed in that machine.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 13:06
lewis said he had to speed up for the last few laps because his tyres were starting to lose temperature... which shows you how fast he was going...
It's also a meaningless statistic for race performance. 1 lap from 50+ is too small a data set from which to draw reliable conclusions about overall race pace, and being fastest for a single lap has no particular benefit in a race.

As an example, Prost and Senna had two years, and 32 races, as team mates. In those 32 races between them they got the fastest race lap 18 times. That's 12 for Prost and 6 for Senna.

Now even amongst hardened Prost fans, myself included, you'd be hard pressed to find someone will argue that Prost was the faster of the two. Prost certainly was fast, but that just made Senna's speed even more astonishing.

Single lap pace is much more important in qualifying, and here Senna was miles ahead of Prost. How's Lewis doing against Nico there? This season he's ahead but O don't know about last season.

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
mattikake said:
What is faster is not the shorter line, but that more time is spent on the throttle on the exit which means the speed on the following straight is marginally faster - this is where the time is gained. The shorter distance is offset by the lower apex speed - the time to negotiate the corner works out to be the same.

Try it next time you're on a track. Suddenly overtaking in and out of corners is easy and everyone will start complaining that you have a power advantage...
Dunno what you're smoking but you seem to be contradicting yourself. I don't think you seem to know what you're talking about other than to save your own skin.

Here's the original article about "straightening the corner" which was indeed applied to oval racing: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/us-scene/in...

You seem to think that you can straighten a corner with the apex in the middle of the corner. If that happened you'd go off the track! Straightening a corner means after turn in the apex and exit will be straight as possible, minimal steering inputs as possible so you don't compromise exit speed therefore you aim for late apex: there's nothing unique or unusual, its basic trackday driving!



mattikake

5,057 posts

198 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
Oh dear.

Where is the contradiction? You're not following me but there is only so much you can explain in words.

Straightening the corner is the same thing. But that's a very basic explanation (well, more like a statement than an explanation) which has to be taken at face value of the writer. It doesn't actually say why the line works out faster, so I was adding to that.

Try picturing it like this which is very crude but the long explanation is long, includes matrices, calculus and newtonian physics and is not going to be disclosed until Lewis has retired. E.g. The same 180 degree hairpin. The normal racing line looks like a "U" shape. The Mansell-line looks more like a "V" shape. That's "more like", don't take me too literally on that.

This is what Mansell is describing:-

mattikake said:
entropy said:
From Nigel Mansell's autobiography, p.33 hardback edition:

"My style is to brake hard and late and turn in very early to the apex of the corner, carrying a lot of speed with me. I then slow the car down again in the corner and drive out of it.
What is faster is not the shorter line (turn in very early), but that more time is spent on the throttle on the exit (drive out of it) which means the speed on the following straight is marginally faster - this is where the time is gained. The shorter distance is offset by the lower apex speed (I then slow the car down again in the corner) - the time to negotiate the corner works out to be the same.
You sound a bit confused yourself. You claim it is "a late apex and nothing new" yet the quote you post from Mansell clearly says he takes an early apex (turn in very early).

As I say, it needs diagrams more than words. But if you can't see the connection with the above then I guess I'll just have to leave you to stupor.

Edited by mattikake on Thursday 24th April 22:21

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
mattikake said:
Try picturing it like this which is very crude but the long explanation is long, includes matrices, calculus and newtonian physics and is not going to be disclosed until Lewis has retired. E.g. The same 180 degree hairpin. The normal racing line looks like a "U" shape. The Mansell-line looks more like a "V" shape. That's "more like", don't take me too literally on that.
Go on, I could do with another laugh!

Mansell said he goes for the early turn in and apex because its the shortest. Your take on the "Mansell line" would be anything but!

I've never ever seen Lewis use the "Mansell-line" which you so describe. I would love to see examples of this.

In the McLarens he would turn in late and straighten the corner. In the Mercs and especically last year he would turn in early for earlier apex because the Mercs understeer. This year he seems to take a more conventional apex.

When another car Lewis always aims for late apex. In Bahrain when racing Nico Lewis goes for late apex for what Brundle calls "The Switchback" (which itself is susceptible to "The Hangout") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koprlc1T4sw&fea...

CocoUK

951 posts

181 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
I would imagine the sensitive Pirelli tyres have also largely dictated what techniques can or can't be used.

mattikake said:
...is not going to be disclosed until Lewis has retired.
Mattikake, I enjoy reading much of your comments but the above is a touch far fetched!

mattikake

5,057 posts

198 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Why are you being so aggressive?

entropy said:
Mansell said he goes for the early turn in and apex because its the shortest. Your take on the "Mansell line" would be anything but!
It's the shortest line, yes. I haven't said anything to the contrary. The bolded words were to make it as simple as possible.

The shorter line allows for the longer time to be spent on throttle because the turning element is done sooner (in terms of time). So it has the potential for faster speed on the following straight, but it is not in itself faster in terms of overall cornering time - entry to exit. The shorter line is only half the equation - one can't happen without the other with this driving style.

So it's (actually as far as has ever been disclosed that I have read), almost immeasurably, no faster in terms of TIME round the corner, entry to exit. It's the momentum for next straight that matters. I think it was Patrick Head who pointed out that the TIME round the corner between Mansell's and Piquet's lines were barely any different, but the shorter line probably added a few 10th's of a second in confidence to Mansell's overall lap.

entropy said:
I've never ever seen Lewis use the "Mansell-line" which you so describe. I would love to see examples of this.


Watch some of his GP2 races. It's easier to see than in F1. Sometimes of course the nature of the track dictates a normal line on some parts of the lap, flowing sections for instance.

There's a reason why Lewis is always so good at the braking/accelerating circuits like Montreal, regardless of car... This kind of situation is where the Mansell-line works at it's best - heavy braking followed by long acceleration.

entropy said:
When another car Lewis always aims for late apex. In Bahrain when racing Nico Lewis goes for late apex for what Brundle calls "The Switchback" (which itself is susceptible to "The Hangout") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koprlc1T4sw&fea...
Eh? He was changing his line for a battle. It was not his normal racing line. I don't see the relevance of that. Are you trying to say his deliberate moves to the wide outside to perform a switchback is his normal racing line?

Edited by mattikake on Friday 25th April 22:51

velocgee

508 posts

145 months

Friday 25th April 2014
quotequote all
Dan Friel said:
I'm not his biggest fan, but spend 40 mins watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZtaVeAJFg

A proper talent.
wow!





i can see why Lewis said Bahrain was him going back to his karting days. what defensive driving! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgpS4kx88s

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Saturday 26th April 2014
quotequote all
mattikake said:
entropy said:
Mansell said he goes for the early turn in and apex because its the shortest. Your take on the "Mansell line" would be anything but!
It's the shortest line, yes. I haven't said anything to the contrary. The bolded words were to make it as simple as possible.

The shorter line allows for the longer time to be spent on throttle because the turning element is done sooner (in terms of time). So it has the potential for faster speed on the following straight, but it is not in itself faster in terms of overall cornering time - entry to exit. The shorter line is only half the equation - one can't happen without the other with this driving style.

So it's (actually as far as has ever been disclosed that I have read), almost immeasurably, no faster in terms of TIME round the corner, entry to exit. It's the momentum for next straight that matters. I think it was Patrick Head who pointed out that the TIME round the corner between Mansell's and Piquet's lines were barely any different, but the shorter line probably added a few 10th's of a second in confidence to Mansell's overall lap.
But you insist the "Mansell line" is akin to a V shape. That itself is longer than a geometric U shape. You don't need matrices, calculus and newtonian physics to know this!

mattikake said:
Try picturing it like this which is very crude but the long explanation is long, includes matrices, calculus and newtonian physics and is not going to be disclosed until Lewis has retired. E.g. The same 180 degree hairpin. The normal racing line looks like a "U" shape. The Mansell-line looks more like a "V" shape. That's "more like", don't take me too literally on that.
mattikake said:
Watch some of his GP2 races. It's easier to see than in F1. Sometimes of course the nature of the track dictates a normal line on some parts of the lap, flowing sections for instance.
Why GP2 and not F1? And there's the likes of Peter Windsor and Mark Hughes who can write about driving styles. So show me proof of the V shaped Mansell line of early turn in early apex!

Hamilton's style is similar to Schumi's.

The first steering input is smooth to guide the car towards the late apex. He is trail braking as he is doing this.

The the brakes are bled off because aero load decreases as speed decreases and then a more aggressive steering input to rotate ie. get the car to turn as it hits the apex.

Steering is released as straight as possible with the throttle nailed with minimal wheelspin as possible.

If it was a 180 degree hairpin then it would be V shaped perhaps early turn in but often not and most certainly not early apex.

There's an abundance of onboard footage Hamilton in F1 on YT if you think what I've said is BS.

mattikake said:
Why are you being so aggressive?
I'm not. You so insist on digging a hole for yourself! rofl

Efbe

9,251 posts

165 months

Saturday 26th April 2014
quotequote all
entropy said:
But you insist the "Mansell line" is akin to a V shape. That itself is longer than a geometric U shape. You don't need matrices, calculus and newtonian physics to know this!
if the speed was static, then yes this is the case, but it is not.

if it is faster to decelerate, and accelerate to a slower point, than maintain a little faster speed around the corner, but for a longer time, then it will be the better route.

(times for example)
Braking - Turning - Accelerating
U:
20S - 10S - 100S
V:
22S - 5S - 103S

looking at the above example, there are two ways a V could be better, firstly if your car is slow when turning and maintaining traction, secondly if you need those extra two seconds in a straight line eg. a long straight.

RichB

51,430 posts

283 months

Sunday 27th April 2014
quotequote all
Gentlemen, what a ridiculous discussion this has become. The most commonly used Mansell line was "It was very difficult..."

Move on getmecoat


CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Monday 28th April 2014
quotequote all
mattikake said:
Try picturing it like this which is very crude but the long explanation is long, includes matrices, calculus and newtonian physics and is not going to be disclosed until Lewis has retired.
errr sounds like North Korea and their fancy spy planes

There's only so many ways one can go around a corner, it's not complicated, or secret. All teams and drivers have tried all manner of styles and lines. And the best thing is the result is easily measurable. Are they faster, or not? Still, I'm sure the other teams await his retirement with interest.

Justaredbadge

37,068 posts

187 months

Monday 28th April 2014
quotequote all
RichB said:
Gentlemen, what a ridiculous discussion this has become. The most commonly used Mansell line was "It was very difficult..."

Move on getmecoat
hehe

spats

838 posts

154 months

Friday 2nd May 2014
quotequote all
Hamiltons good, theres no denying that.

Hes got the right mindset, the right car and the right skills and hes making the best of them. Pretty much what Vettle did, he was in the right car with the right skills at the right time and got to wave his finger in the air because of it.

Most will agree he did beat his team mate, but its also well known the car was pretty much setup for Vettles driving style. Mark and Seb were pretty close at one point, then the bown diffuser came online and Seb managed to work that and Mark didnt. The car was pushed towards Seb and low and behold what happened happened.

Now look at Seb, hes lost his sweet spot and now Dans faster than Seb. Its early days but has that happened in Hamiltons time behind the wheel? (genuine question btw)

So imoa both drivers got the chance to push in very quick cars and made the most of it. Surely thats the mark of a good driver? make the most of what you have. good old fred could be argued hes been doing that for years now and could be better than Vettle or Hamilton when looking at ability to drag less than good car up the field.

So is Hamilton under rated? maybe a few started to write him off, but if he turns this very good chance of winning into another title then surely the Nay sayers were wrong to write him off so soon?

btw I'm no fanboy, Although its nice to see home grown talent winning, I would be happy watching anyone of the current top drivers winning as long as the race is a good one, thats what matters.

ukmike2000

476 posts

167 months

Monday 5th May 2014
quotequote all
I played around with a few statistics to see how some of the popular drivers have fared over the years. It isn't really possible to compare the number of points they scored, or even the number of wins - the number of available races and the points systems have changed a lot over the years.
However, the success versus the number of World Championship starts is quite revealing, and some of the people you thought were fast turn out not to be!

Fastest laps Per Start >>

Fangio 0.45
Clark 0.39
Moss 0.29
Schumacher 0.25
Prost 0.21
Raikkonen 0.20
Vettel 0.18
Damon Hill 0.17
Mansell 0.16
Hakkinen 0.16
Stewart 0.15
Lauda 0.14
Hawthorn 0.13
Senna 0.12
Hamilton 0.11
James Hunt 0.09
Graham Hill 0.06

i.e. Fangio got the fastest lap in almost half the races he started in - 45%. Hamilton has almost as many fastest laps per race start as Senna, but fewer than Mansell/Lauda/Prost and even Damon Hill!

Amongst a similar crowd of drivers he lies 10th in number of wins per start (Senna sits in 7th),
Podiums per start Hamilton is 9th (Senna 5th, Prost 2nd)
Poles per start he is 5th (Fangio 1st, Clark 2nd, Senna 3rd, Vettel 4th, Hamilton 5th and Stirling Moss 6th)

I'm sure Hamilton will rise rapidly up the rankings during 2014, but that is how it stands today. I haven't fully populated the spreadsheet but the list does include Alonso, Webber, Raikkonen, Massa etc.

It is worth noting that if Hamilton wins every remaining race this year, he will equal Stewart's "wins per race start" but will still be behind Vettel, Schumacher, Clark and Fangio.

Edited by ukmike2000 on Monday 5th May 01:22


Edited by ukmike2000 on Monday 5th May 10:12