Was Hamilton underrated

[Chipmunk1]

Great post RichB !

[mattikake]

Derek Smith said:

I'm not sure that there's anyone who could partner him in an identical car and be confident of out-scoring him at the end of the season.

Alonso made that mistake once... I bet he wouldn't do it again! And no-one can come close to matching Alonso in the same car.

This is where I value teammate battles more than anything else for who is really great.

ash73 said:

In fact I'm praying Nico wins the next one just to stop Lewis' head getting any bigger.

I want Nico to get some wins too but for the reverse reason - to stop Nico's head dropping (shrinking). You can see this is starting to happen already. Another couple of races where Lewis beats him by another means, will break him for sure.

This is it though. I don't think Lewis has a big head at all, and never has. He still seems to be stunned to be living the dream that he's actually an F1 driver. (lucky git) He just wants to race. All of his comments, interviews and blogs have suggested this is all he wants to do. He has never said or implied he thinks he's the best - like being "blown away" by Alonso's comments about LH's quality.

Senna didn't want to win WDC's. He wanted to be the best and prove he was the best, to himself, not the world. Amongst beating his teammates and anyone on the track, this ultimately meant he wanted Prost - the Alonso of his time. Any place, any where, any car (even a road-legal saloon car in the wet at Nurburgring). He did it. Despite not winning as many WDC's or races, Senna is broadly regarded as the better driver because he beat him, on equal ground.

It's also become apparent twice this year already, that LH seems genuinely unaware and surprised to hear of the British records he's breaking. Obviously they're not important to him, unlike Vettel and Schumacher who knew that they were breaking records when it came to finishing an interviewing reporters questions, even breaking down in tears when they achieved them - it was a big important goal to them.

Different cultures, different personal measures of success I guess.

If he's on stage at the British GP after-party and I can get a question at him, I'll be asking him if, after inevitably winning the WDC , he'll deliberately qualify last so we can see him storm through the field and see how high he can finish. (There's still an F1 record of last to first to achieve afterall) I bet he would. SV could've done this, but instead he chose to bore us all with his quest for stats. The sad thing is, we all knew in advance SV would do this too.

Did anyone see his Facebook message today? He reached 2 million likes, and recorded a personal message for his fans, 500,000 more than his nearest rival. Says it all...

All honest heart and passion for the thrill racing, like a kid with his favourite xmas present. Great bloke. Can't fault him.

[entropy]

mattikake said:

Pundits still continue to dig at Lewis' "intelligence". Often citing things like tyre management and race awareness as a problem and being inferior to Button in this respect, despite proving many times he has this licked too. See Bahrain for the most recent example of many, eeking out the distance on soft tyres to beat the [faster] Rosberg, despite instructions from his team to push - this was race awareness, pure and simple.

IMHO you're mistaking racecraft for intelligence. I think racecraft is the art of racing whereas intelligence and racing with a 'brain' is about understanding and dictating strategy and not necessarily how to attack to win a race but to win WDC ie. sometimes its OK to settle of points than be a hero/go for race win.

I remember one wet/dry race Hamilton questioning "who's idea was this?" in an irate tone. I think this BBC Breakfast clip is a reference to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rN4DXa_Gls

Another example would be 2008 Japanese Grand Prix where Alonso over-ruled the team and dictated pit strategy because he had taken into account of Kubica's graining.

As entertaining he is to watch I sometimes find him frustrating at times. Sometimes its OK to finish in the points rather than race wins - especially with WDC on the line. I'm thinking of 2007 Brazillian GP and 2008 Japanese GP rather than 2009 Italian GP.

[davepoth]

entropy said:

mattikake said:

Pundits still continue to dig at Lewis' "intelligence". Often citing things like tyre management and race awareness as a problem and being inferior to Button in this respect, despite proving many times he has this licked too. See Bahrain for the most recent example of many, eeking out the distance on soft tyres to beat the [faster] Rosberg, despite instructions from his team to push - this was race awareness, pure and simple.

At Bahrain, the Mercedes was that much quicker than the rest of the field that Rosberg and Hamilton knew they could cock about like they were karting again for 20 laps and still have nobody come close. Hamilton also knew that Rosberg wouldn't crash into him no matter how mental his car positioning was, as the team had so much at stake.

As far as I'm concerned it wasn't really about tyre management but one-on-one racing, and that's where Hamilton excels; if he's got something specific he needs to do, he can do it, and he's very good at it. Bahrain was a masterclass in racing, by Rosberg as well, and I loved it.

Doing what he had to do at McLaren - dicing in the midfield in an uncompetitive car, trying to get the jump in the pitstops while not being jumped from behind while looking to the sky to check the weather - playing chess at 180mph effectively - was not his strong suit. You could hear it in his voice in the radio messages, see it in his body language when he didn't understand the way the race played out time and time again. That situational awareness was how Button, slower driver that he was, came out a little bit in front on points in the final reckoning.

I'd be amazed if Hamilton doesn't win the WDC this year. He's got the measure of his team-mate and no other car is anywhere near them. But while he's the class of the field, he's not Senna.

[Swordman]

blasos said:

RumbleOfThunder said:

SuperDude said:

Gillett66 said:

Swordman said:

Personally, I think LH is the fastest driver Formula 1 has ever seen, and I always suspected that he'll get his moment to shine.

LOL

Not even close.

How could either of you even qualify those comments?!

Maybe you should qualify "the boy IS by far and away the fastest man on that grid". His own team mate had the measure of him in Bahrain ffs. Hamilton himself admitted Nico was faster.

So, to be the fastest driver of all time you have to be faster than everyone at every race and never be slower - is that it? Even Usain Bolt has been beaten on occasion, by your measure he also is not the fastest 100 m sprinter of all time. A truly groundless statement.

I didn't see much of Senna, I started watching around the time of his death. So, from that point on I'd say Hamilton is the fastest driver over one lap. The best would be Michael Schumacher or Alonso. Hakkinen, Hamilton and Raikkonen below them.

Verily, Rumble of thunder is the thickest person from the comments above. There's not much I can mention that Mattikake hasn't already, but just to reitterate, he has been consistently faster than all of his team mates, which includes Alonso, Button, Rosberg and some other jabroni. In fact, Alonso (who is widely regarded as best all around driver) even cracked under Hamilton's pressure and he tried to sabotage his races.

Schumacher in his prime was good, but Alonso (or was it Kimi?) spooked him and he retired rather than having that person as a team mate. Hamilton doesn't get spooked.

[h8tax]

As above, F1 would be a very poor place without Lewis (and Kimi in his way).

At the post race interview in China, he said something like "I can't believe it - I'm just a kid from Stevenage" and went on to mention his family. I think there is some genuine humility in him (which never comes across from SV for example)

With regard to his actual racing, I have always thought of him Senna-like in his actual driving, but without Senna's win at all costs edge and ruthlessness - so maybe a bit closer to Mansell after all.

His private life is a bit of a rollercoaster, and obviously affects his driving a lot. I enjoy watching that rollercoaster, both in and out of the car.

[Derek Smith]

entropy said:

As entertaining he is to watch I sometimes find him frustrating at times. Sometimes its OK to finish in the points rather than race wins - especially with WDC on the line. I'm thinking of 2007 Brazillian GP and 2008 Japanese GP rather than 2009 Italian GP.

So are you suggesting he should be more like Prost? Now there was an entertaining driver.

I was in a group watching a GP on TV, about 8 of us. There was a Mansell supporter and a Prost supporter arguing about which was best for the sport (I know, but you have to talk about something). One chap came up with a way to answer the question. He asked the rest of us to list ten races that Mansell put in an exciting and memorable performance and do the same for Prost.

We all screwed up our pieces of paper and threw them at the Prost supporter.

Of course it is not alright to accept points rather than try and win. The WDC is a statistical exercise. It is artificial, a construct. It means nothing over and above the statistics. It is manufactured to increase the excitement.

It's race winners for me.

I ran a fantasy F1 series and awarded points for other praiseworthy bits of driving, like making up places from the grid. If a car had a puncture and dropped places, then any places made up got bonus points. There were also points awarded for beating your team mate. Mechanical failure? - you got the points for where you were at the time. And five points for the man of the match, hardly ever, if ever, the winner. There is as much justification for those things to be considered as finishing position in the WDC.

I like the old way when there was just the grand prix. I follow the WDC of course, but it doesn't really mean that much.

[RealSquirrels]

entropy said:

Last year he was moaning about too much info being a distraction and then not enough info.

At McLaren wet-dry conditions was when Button had a distinct advantage over Lewis. Whether it was sheer luck of stick or twist when came to changing tyres or Button has the knack of reading the conditions Button has had supreme confidence in this area whereas if you remember Lewis' reaction was not only did he seem irate but utterly clueless.

pretty much every time it's wet/dry button takes a gamble on tyres and people remember the times that it works out, they forget about it when it doesn't.

[Agent Orange]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

Agent Orange said:

mattikake said:

Lewis has beaten everyone he's come up against

You make a lot of very excellent points but this one intrigues me... Has anyone else ever done that bar Schumacher (I'm ignoring his time after retiring)? Even then you wouldn't say Schumacher had the best team mates - bar Piquet early on and that was at the end of Piquet's career.

Even in 2011?

You'll not find many people more blinkered or biased about Jenson Button than me.

Whilst the facts will always show that Jenson finished 2nd that year behind Vettel and Hamilton was 4th or 5th (?) I can't agree that one year counts for a lot out of 3 together as team mates.

I think it is fair to say that Jenson was hugely underrated by large sections of fans (and some ex-drivers) and many expected him to be annihilated by joining Lewis' team. That he did so well against a driver most would put in their top 1 or 2 drivers of the current era says more about Jenson than anything else.

Certainly Jenson beat Lewis in 2011 but over their 3 years as team mates even I couldn't say that Lewis was second to Jenson.

[RealSquirrels]

having said that (agent orange) we saw jenson button pissing about in the midfield like he is now in the in 2012, whilst hamilton was winning races in the same car. so who really knows how good button is. perhaps he's a bit like vettel, fast in the right car, but no good in anything else. even in 2011, hamilton was quicker than button in the races, just not finishing them where his pace meant he should. button won on consistency and not speed.

[PugwasHDJ80]

Agent Orange said:

Ecurie Ecosse said:

Agent Orange said:

mattikake said:

Lewis has beaten everyone he's come up against

You make a lot of very excellent points but this one intrigues me... Has anyone else ever done that bar Schumacher (I'm ignoring his time after retiring)? Even then you wouldn't say Schumacher had the best team mates - bar Piquet early on and that was at the end of Piquet's career.

Even in 2011?

You'll not find many people more blinkered or biased about Jenson Button than me.

Whilst the facts will always show that Jenson finished 2nd that year behind Vettel and Hamilton was 4th or 5th (?) I can't agree that one year counts for a lot out of 3 together as team mates.

I think it is fair to say that Jenson was hugely underrated by large sections of fans (and some ex-drivers) and many expected him to be annihilated by joining Lewis' team. That he did so well against a driver most would put in their top 1 or 2 drivers of the current era says more about Jenson than anything else.

Certainly Jenson beat Lewis in 2011 but over their 3 years as team mates even I couldn't say that Lewis was second to Jenson.

JB had an interesting interview where LH came up, can't remember his exact words, but they were basically:

"LH is definitely quicker than me over one lap, he's quite amazing at it, but a race isn't one lap...."

thought it was an interesting comment.

NOt sure that LH has ever been under-rated. Its clear that there are a number of very very very good drivers around, and i'm not sure any are that much better than the rest- it could be that they are all exceptional! They are all clearly capable of winning WDC's on their own merit anyway!

[SuperDude]

Poor Jenson too often gets a kicking for not bringing home results I truly believe his talent deserves (save, you know, that world championship of his)

I really do think he's one of the best on that grid. But, as I'm sure no one could argue, Lewis was just that fraction quicker during their time together.

[RealSquirrels]

for me it's not just that hamilton was quicker than button, it's that hamilton could win in a car that button would struggle to get into the top 10. I don't think this reflects on the 'top-end' ability of either but for me suggests that button's 'operating window' is a lot smaller than hamilton's, and this is clearly a major disadvantage.

[PugwasHDJ80]

RealSquirrels said:

for me it's not just that hamilton was quicker than button, it's that hamilton could win in a car that button would struggle to get into the top 10. I don't think this reflects on the 'top-end' ability of either but for me suggests that button's 'operating window' is a lot smaller than hamilton's, and this is clearly a major disadvantage.

maybe- on flip side Hamilton can get himself into all sorts of problems starting third or fourth, whereas Jenson often outperforms the car from tenth (ending up third or fourth fairly frequently). and then there was THAT drive in Canada......

[bozzy101]

I don't think anyone can doubt his pace. He's an incredibly gifted driver!

What he probably still lacks is the maturity and experience that make some of the other drivers better in certain circumstances. Having said that, the older LH gets, the more these things improve.

Do I see him in the same light as Prost, Senna, et all. Not at the moment. I've no doubt though that in 10-20 years, he will join that line up in my mind as an all time great.

[angrymoby]

I may not like his 'celebrity' lifestyle choices ...or his god bothering, but fk me, he can pedal.

& contrary to a couple of other posters, i think you're seeing more of the 'old' Lewis- hungry & focused, mentally in a happy place & in a car he knows will win the WDC (which lets be honest, he hasn't been for a while)

[deadslow]

Yes, give him a car that's 1s faster than everyone else and he is quick. He takes his chance when its handed to him.

[CharlesAL]

2010-2011 were hard for him not having a car to match Vettel, and he made a few mistakes trying to push things too far, but I think it's pretty clear since 2012 that he's come on a long way. Definitely the most exciting driver in F1 at the moment, and in the top two at least, with Alonso.

He's always been brilliant with racecraft but his abilities to manage the car were always underrated I think. People thought Rosberg would beat him this year by saving more fuel early in the race and deploying it at the end, or saving the tyres better, but it hasn't happened at all.

And he always sounds like a nice guy as well. I like listening to him talking about racing, you can feel his love for what he does.

[Alfanatic]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

Agent Orange said:

mattikake said:

Lewis has beaten everyone he's come up against

You make a lot of very excellent points but this one intrigues me... Has anyone else ever done that bar Schumacher (I'm ignoring his time after retiring)? Even then you wouldn't say Schumacher had the best team mates - bar Piquet early on and that was at the end of Piquet's career.

Even in 2011?

Prost has beaten every team mate he's had, as far as I can recall, not sure about his last season at Ferrari though. He took a couple of attempts to beat Lauda and Senna, but then Lewis finished below Button once or twice, did he not?

Schumy got beaten by Irvine (with the help of a broken leg) and I think that's it until his comeback years. I would bet the same thing applies to Lauda, Prost beat him in his (second) retirement year and that's the only occasion I can recall Lauda finishing below his team mate. Was Fangio ever beaten by a team mate? And Clarke? Or Stewart?

Also remember that Prost in his career had a role call of the era's great drivers as team mates. Arnoux was touted as a future champ, then there was Lauda, who beat him by just half a point and readily acknowledged that Prost was quicker. Then Keke Rosberg, Senna of course, who even when he beat Prost in '88, Prost scored more points and only one less win, he made Senna work for that title, then there was Mansell. Prost was team mates to practically all the best drivers of his era, and beat every last one of them at one point or another. I think the Senna clashes do cloud over what he really achieved somewhat. Senna was faster, but I don't think anyone else at the time but Prost would have ended up 1-1 with Senna after two years in the same car.

Edited by Alfanatic on Wednesday 23 April 13:41

[mattikake]

entropy said:

mattikake said:

Pundits still continue to dig at Lewis' "intelligence". Often citing things like tyre management and race awareness as a problem and being inferior to Button in this respect, despite proving many times he has this licked too. See Bahrain for the most recent example of many, eeking out the distance on soft tyres to beat the [faster] Rosberg, despite instructions from his team to push - this was race awareness, pure and simple.

IMHO you're mistaking racecraft for intelligence. I think racecraft is the art of racing whereas intelligence and racing with a 'brain' is about understanding and dictating strategy and not necessarily how to attack to win a race but to win WDC ie. sometimes its OK to settle of points than be a hero/go for race win.

I remember one wet/dry race Hamilton questioning "who's idea was this?" in an irate tone. I think this BBC Breakfast clip is a reference to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rN4DXa_Gls

Another example would be 2008 Japanese Grand Prix where Alonso over-ruled the team and dictated pit strategy because he had taken into account of Kubica's graining.

As entertaining he is to watch I sometimes find him frustrating at times. Sometimes its OK to finish in the points rather than race wins - especially with WDC on the line. I'm thinking of 2007 Brazillian GP and 2008 Japanese GP rather than 2009 Italian GP.

I see what you're saying. The "intelligence" I'm referring to is the general implication of pundits, not me, hence the "".

Yes I'd also say the above all comes under racecraft.

I have noticed that under McLaren Lewis seemed to see himself as a team player who did what he was told, often coming a cropper due to McL strategists, particularly China 2007 where he badly wanted to come in but the team told him to stay out. It seems at Merc he's more his own man and maybe has decided to go with what he knows, than someone else. Maybe this is a feature of driver maturing?

Perhaps "intelligence" should be more aimed at car development, feedback and leading a team. Or maybe even more general that than. It's been noted that Lewis' energy can galvanize a team as it has done at Merc, but that's more emotional intelligence than actual intelligence. Little of this years car could be put down to Lewis personally, but who can truly quantify how that happens? It's like working for a nice boss and a boss you hate. Both have a huge impact on motivation and how hard you work, regardless of how clever you are and how much you personally understand the work.