Was Hamilton underrated

[longblackcoat]

I really don't see where the idea that Nico Rosberg is some sort of PhD level superbrain has come from, nor the view that Lewis Hamilton is, bluntly, a bit thick. There's a sort of patronising view that Lewis is somehow less intelligent because all he's ever done is race, and was never interested in school. OK, so Nico has more paper qualifications, but then he grew up the privileged son of a World Champion rather than on a council estate in Stevenage.

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

[foreverdriving]

longblackcoat said:

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

Qualifying should be decided by who can count to 100 the fastest.

[gshughes]

Derek Smith said:

I'm not sure that there's anyone who could partner him in an identical car and be confident of out-scoring him at the end of the season.

Didn't Jenson Button, who was his team mate at the time, outscore him in 2011?

[Exige77]

foreverdriving said:

longblackcoat said:

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

Qualifying should be decided by who can count to 100 the fastest.

Will the 107% rule apply ?

If they can't count past 93 they don't qualify

[simonpeter]

I`m sure that comparing drivers from diferent eras is never going to be anything more than personal opinions, and or favourites. Any discussion of Lewis always seems to ruffle a few feathers. I have found him to be an exciting but sometimes frustrating driver to watch. He is improving with his added experience and maturity. Perhaps his first foray into F1 with Mclaren at a very high level of competitivness gave him the keys to the toy cabinette at too early a stage in his career. There is no doubts regarding his ability, or his likelyhood of adding further world championships. After watching F1 for over 40 years I feel that only time will tell of his place in the sports history. Out of the top draw without question.

[Derek Smith]

gshughes said:

Derek Smith said:

I'm not sure that there's anyone who could partner him in an identical car and be confident of out-scoring him at the end of the season.

Didn't Jenson Button, who was his team mate at the time, outscore him in 2011?

Confident is a big word in my post and I would be surprised if Button was not, like the rest of us, a little bit surprised by the end of year result.

However, the difference between the top drivers is minuscule. We are talking fag paper stuff here, and one small change is enough to make a difference. I'd say that no one could doubt Vettel's ability but a sister thread would prove that wrong, but a change of forumla, albeit a massive one, has him being soundly beaten by a rookie after four years of total dominance.

[entropy]

Derek Smith said:

So are you suggesting he should be more like Prost? Now there was an entertaining driver.

Never harmed Schumi who I regard had a mixture of Senna & Prost and he's still regarded as an entertaining driver.

Derek Smith said:

I was in a group watching a GP on TV, about 8 of us. There was a Mansell supporter and a Prost supporter arguing about which was best for the sport (I know, but you have to talk about something). One chap came up with a way to answer the question. He asked the rest of us to list ten races that Mansell put in an exciting and memorable performance and do the same for Prost.

I think he's under rated to a degree mainly because he of his nous of being efficient. It's the old adage of Prost winning but all the talk would be Senna or Mansell. There's the 1982 South African GP when he recovered from a puncture and won or how about 1990 Mexican GP? Mansell stole the headlines for his impressive overtake on Berger but Prost started way behind Mansell and won the race and even overtook Mansell. Prost was flawless that day whereas Mansell spun and had to overtake Berger again.

Prost, of course had his flaw(s) as do every other drivers.

Gaz. said:

JB didn't make the call in Melbourne, his engineer did - as per JB's interviews after the race.

Got a link for that?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/andrewbenson/201...

"It was his decision to come in for tyres as early as lap six and, although he slipped off the track early in his first lap out of the pits, he set fastest times in the final two sectors of the same lap, and the others were forced to follow his lead."

mattikake said:

Perhaps "intelligence" should be more aimed at car development, feedback and leading a team. Or maybe even more general that than. It's been noted that Lewis' energy can galvanize a team as it has done at Merc, but that's more emotional intelligence than actual intelligence. Little of this years car could be put down to Lewis personally, but who can truly quantify how that happens? It's like working for a nice boss and a boss you hate. Both have a huge impact on motivation and how hard you work, regardless of how clever you are and how much you personally understand the work.

Due to his God given talents Hamilton has extra mental capacity but it was never felt it was used efficiently and how much of a grafter he was.

It's been said Nico studiously pores over data and the engineers, Alonso and Vettel most certainly. It's been said that Mansell cared about finding the nearest golf course and similar has been said of Hamilton's distractions.

[PugwasHDJ80]

Derek Smith said:

gshughes said:

Derek Smith said:

I'm not sure that there's anyone who could partner him in an identical car and be confident of out-scoring him at the end of the season.

Didn't Jenson Button, who was his team mate at the time, outscore him in 2011?

Confident is a big word in my post and I would be surprised if Button was not, like the rest of us, a little bit surprised by the end of year result.

Really? I think JB feels, with good reason that he has every reason to beat LH over a season.

These guys all think they are the best- you don't get their otherwise by thinking you can't beat everyone - especially your team mate.

[Dunit]

Whats often missed is he never gives up, Highlited his drive in his last year at Macs , Korea ?, The car had a broken rear antiroll bar and he was dragging a lump of astroturf around, The car was leaping all over the track but still was fighting tooth and nail with the Toros over some minor place.
The guys a out and out racer!

[Crafty_]

longblackcoat said:

I really don't see where the idea that Nico Rosberg is some sort of PhD level superbrain has come from, nor the view that Lewis Hamilton is, bluntly, a bit thick. There's a sort of patronising view that Lewis is somehow less intelligent because all he's ever done is race, and was never interested in school. OK, so Nico has more paper qualifications, but then he grew up the privileged son of a World Champion rather than on a council estate in Stevenage.

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

Rosberg is very intelligent by all accounts and apparently has a very good grasp of the engineering side, he said in an interview once if he wasn't driving in F1 he'd have wanted to be engineering the cars.

Nevertheless, your point is quite valid about all four drivers.

[anonymous-user]

10 Pence Short said:

Totally agree. Is he a great, top tier driver in terms of ability? Absolutely. Is he single minded enough to be one of 'the greats', probably not.

He's already done enough to be looked back on as one of the greats I think. He has some impressive statistics, although not quite up there with Vettel, Schumacher, Fangio etc. but he is right in the mix.

Stats aren't everything though as Sterling Moss proves. IMO although Hamilton has only 1 championship at the moment, the sheer entertainment he produces on track, his performance in lesser cars, and the overtakes he has pulled off will ensure he is looked back on as a great. The same goes for Alonso.

[entropy]

longblackcoat said:

I really don't see where the idea that Nico Rosberg is some sort of PhD level superbrain has come from, nor the view that Lewis Hamilton is, bluntly, a bit thick. There's a sort of patronising view that Lewis is somehow less intelligent because all he's ever done is race, and was never interested in school. OK, so Nico has more paper qualifications, but then he grew up the privileged son of a World Champion rather than on a council estate in Stevenage.

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

I wasn't questioning his or any other driver's IQ levels.

Intelligence in a racing driver is the extra mental capacity for analysing a race and coming up with a game-changer mid-race themselves and not necessarily reliant on the team.

[Derek Smith]

RenOHH said:

Stats aren't everything though as Sterling Moss proves. IMO although Hamilton has only 1 championship at the moment, the sheer entertainment he produces on track, his performance in lesser cars, and the overtakes he has pulled off will ensure he is looked back on as a great. The same goes for Alonso.

+1

Not to mention his attempts that failed as well.

F1 would have been a lot poorer for his absence, and there's few enough drivers out there you can say that about.

Even after leaving Mclaren, I've got to say I find him fascinating to watch. I dread the thought of him just driving out in front with nothing to do but manage tyres.

[Hamster69]

Underrated, defiantly not. Overrated, particularly by himself.
He is suddenly winning races now he has the fastest car, just like Damon or Mika.
I don't think that really makes him a top talent.

[Dan Friel]

Hamster69 said:

Underrated, defiantly not. Overrated, particularly by himself.
He is suddenly winning races now he has the fastest car, just like Damon or Mika.
I don't think that really makes him a top talent.

I'm not his biggest fan, but spend 40 mins watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZtaVeAJFg

A proper talent.

[velocgee]

Efbe said:

Spawn said:

RichB said:

mattikake said:

...only underrated by critics and pundits who are too busy sucking up to others on only-as-good-as-your-last-race-itis.

Anyone who follows F1 properly pays close attention to feeder series. I've seen Lewis coming since 2003 in F.Renault, where he won every race after a shaky start.

That start was a result of his only weakness - he is mentally vulnerable. At the start of 2003 he only stated his mind wasn't on the job, but once given a kick up the rse by himself, he was literally untouchable. This has largely been the case wherever he has gone in whatever series. I think this is because he sees himself as a regular guy and an all-round good guy. He therefore lets negatives get to him. The press, media and even the stewards on occasion, in case anyone has forgotten about those moments, not all of them dealt with fairly...

Lewis has beaten everyone he's come up against, including arguably the best driver on the grid (as is becoming more apparent year-on-year), Alonso, in his FIRST F1 season FFS! Would Senna have done that to Prost? Senna of 1984 & 85, while clearly fast and a future WDC, was not nearly as consistent and race aware as the Senna of 1988. Beating the-man-to-beat Alonso by 1 point, and rattling him, team favourite or not, was no mean feat.

Pundits still continue to dig at Lewis' "intelligence". Often citing things like tyre management and race awareness as a problem and being inferior to Button in this respect, despite proving many times he has this licked too. See Bahrain for the most recent example of many, eeking out the distance on soft tyres to beat the [faster] Rosberg, despite instructions from his team to push - this was race awareness, pure and simple.

Arguably the fastest. Arguably the best overtaker. Arguably the best racer. Always able to get the max out of the car AND the tyres. He's not overrated by me but it probably is by some non-fans and neutrals.

Ultimately I miss Nige. I miss entertainment and racing. Lewis, despite being a Senna fan, is actually a full Mansell British bulldog reincarnate at heart - a racer, a charger, an overtaker and most of all, an entertainer. It could be because they both have the same driving style - driving the "Mansell line" - but I like to think it's because they both have that British stiff upper-lip spirit.

And while I talk of entertainment in a dominant car, we've had 3 races with Lewis in the right car [at the right time, for the first time] and 1 of them is being billed as the race of the century already because of Lewis' nature. How many wins has Vettel had while he had the right car, at the right time, that were entertaining? Any?

In pure entertainment value, Lewis is king by a mile. That's all that matters to me. It's all that matters to most.

Best post on ph for a long time. Most posts are utter shiz.

A better topic would be who thinks f1 would be dull with out Lewis?

+1

Edited by Efbe on Tuesday 22 April 23:36

+1

[Blib]

I remember that race he had in GP2. I think it was Spain? The track was damp. He was spun out on the first lap. Restarted at the back of the field and on a track that everyone else found impossible to overtake on, he carved his way through the field to finish second.

One of the most remarkable drives I've ever seen.

[anonymous-user]

SuperDude said:

Vettel doesn't have the race consistency (yeah fine he decimated the field the last four years, but he was driving the fastest car at 7/10ths in race trim)

What are you smoking? 4 championships in a row is just about the definition of consistency.

In 2010 he led the WDC only once, at the final race which he won by 4 points over Alonso. The car was fast, but not dominant. In 2011 and 2013 the car was dominant and you could argue he was cruising at times, but look at what Webber did in the same car - 200 points behind in 2013. In 2012, like 2010, Vettel won through sheer consistency and just racked up the points race after race to win by 3 points over Alonso again. In 2012 Vettel wasn't in the fastest car, Hamilton was.

Vettel is consistent, no one can dispute that.

[mattikake]

Blib said:

I remember that race he had in GP2. I think it was Spain? The track was damp. He was spun out on the first lap. Restarted at the back of the field and on a track that everyone else found impossible to overtake on, he carved his way through the field to finish second.

One of the most remarkable drives I've ever seen.

Dan Friel said:

I'm not his biggest fan, but spend 40 mins watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZtaVeAJFg

A proper talent.

The above was at Turkey. You can see more of the same here:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMCmrsahWFs

What you need to take into consideration with that vid is the commentators talking about Lewis' car being so much better on the brakes and on traction. It wasn't the car at all, it was Lewis and his Mansell-line driving style. This style is naturally impressive on brakes and acceleration. It was not the car.

By far the most remarkable thing about this race was not that he was skinning people left, right and centre like they were standing still, nor that he was blowing away the commentators, but lapping faster and faster Mansell-esque, on the same tyres and the same car. No trickery or tactics. Usually in that GP2 season you would be well pushed to see a lap difference of 0.3s maybe 0.5s but Lewis was lapping 1.5s and more faster than everyone. It was like he zoned-in on the charge and nothing else existed in the universe except to go faster and faster, lap after lap. Like that Senna pole lap at Monaco, where he talks about entering a whole other level.

This wasn't last to 2nd in around 70 laps as has been seen by the likes of Prost and Mansell. This was last to 2nd in 22 laps.

That's when I started to get really excited about his impending arrival in F1. The next true great clearly on the cards, except unlike in recent decades, he was British. British in spirit and guile. Our best hope of prowess for our little Island since Jimmy.

...but the nature of F1 isn't quite that simple.

[longblackcoat]

entropy said:

longblackcoat said:

I really don't see where the idea that Nico Rosberg is some sort of PhD level superbrain has come from, nor the view that Lewis Hamilton is, bluntly, a bit thick. There's a sort of patronising view that Lewis is somehow less intelligent because all he's ever done is race, and was never interested in school. OK, so Nico has more paper qualifications, but then he grew up the privileged son of a World Champion rather than on a council estate in Stevenage.

And look at the other drivers. Button has a solitary GCSE to his name, but Max Chilton has eight. Let's see, who do we think is the better driver?

I wasn't questioning his or any other driver's IQ levels.

Intelligence in a racing driver is the extra mental capacity for analysing a race and coming up with a game-changer mid-race themselves and not necessarily reliant on the team.

Well, that's certainly a definition.

Another might be the ability to work with a given set of tools (car, mechanics, tyres) and add your ability to get the car on pole, secure in the knowledge that you can then beat your team-mate, who has had exactly the same access to the same tools.

Basically, Hamilton's preparing better than Nico. He's also learned to drive better - the lift and glide technique he's using means he's using less fuel, so there's always more in reserve if he needs to turn the power up later on in the race. In order to do this he's had to get the braking feel exactly as he wants it, which has apparently taken a lot of simulator time; he never managed this last year.

Overall, I'd say intelligence in a racing driver is about coming up with a game plan before the season starts, and delivering it all the way through, varying the plan as needed. Hamilton has performed faultlessly this season, and but for a £20 part he would almost certainly have had 4 wins out of 4. He's come up with a plan, prepared for the year properly, has refined his driving technique, and works well with his engineers.

Roscoe is having to stay at home this season, but it's paying dividends.