Was Hamilton underrated

[anonymous-user]

Dan Friel said:

I'm not his biggest fan, but spend 40 mins watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZtaVeAJFg

A proper talent.

Not seen that one before, that's utterly ridiculous

[Chipmunk1]

Brilliant, just brilliant !

[Red555]

RenOHH said:

SuperDude said:

Vettel doesn't have the race consistency (yeah fine he decimated the field the last four years, but he was driving the fastest car at 7/10ths in race trim)

What are you smoking? 4 championships in a row is just about the definition of consistency.

In 2010 he led the WDC only once, at the final race which he won by 4 points over Alonso. The car was fast, but not dominant. In 2011 and 2013 the car was dominant and you could argue he was cruising at times, but look at what Webber did in the same car - 200 points behind in 2013. In 2012, like 2010, Vettel won through sheer consistency and just racked up the points race after race to win by 3 points over Alonso again. In 2012 Vettel wasn't in the fastest car, Hamilton was.

Vettel is consistent, no one can dispute that.

I agree with you on Vettel's consistency; however, I think super dude may not be the only one smoking something if you think that neither Jenson or Lewis could barely get within 100 points of Vettel over the season in spite of being ''in the fastest car''.

[entropy]

mattikake said:

What you need to take into consideration with that vid is the commentators talking about Lewis' car being so much better on the brakes and on traction. It wasn't the car at all, it was Lewis and his Mansell-line driving style. This style is naturally impressive on brakes and acceleration. It was not the car.

Why do you keep refering to the "Mansell-line"? are you refering to racing line? Mansell style is similar to Vettel's, both oversteery, earlier turn-in than textbook and on the throttle early as possible; Hamilton is textbook late apex in oversteering/neutral car but ironically he has admitted he prefers a bit of understeer.

Hamilton reminds me of Clark, Gilles and Mansell roled into one. Naturally gifted as Clark, purity and hero worship of Gilles and the exciting overtakes of Mansell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b8D0g0SmB0

longblackcoat said:

Well, that's certainly a definition.

Another might be the ability to work with a given set of tools (car, mechanics, tyres) and add your ability to get the car on pole, secure in the knowledge that you can then beat your team-mate, who has had exactly the same access to the same tools.

Basically, Hamilton's preparing better than Nico. He's also learned to drive better - the lift and glide technique he's using means he's using less fuel, so there's always more in reserve if he needs to turn the power up later on in the race. In order to do this he's had to get the braking feel exactly as he wants it, which has apparently taken a lot of simulator time; he never managed this last year.

Overall, I'd say intelligence in a racing driver is about coming up with a game plan before the season starts, and delivering it all the way through, varying the plan as needed. Hamilton has performed faultlessly this season, and but for a £20 part he would almost certainly have had 4 wins out of 4. He's come up with a plan, prepared for the year properly, has refined his driving technique, and works well with his engineers.

Roscoe is having to stay at home this season, but it's paying dividends.

Can't say I agree with that definition. Brundle constantly refers to top drivers' spare mental capacity in racing conditions.

In any sport its more than prep work/game plan. It's like football pundits talking about a footballers having a "footballing brain": knowing how to read the game, making the best of your skillset so you don't neccessarily have to be gifted.

Not wanting to starting an argument its a subjective matter so each to their own.

[mattikake]

entropy said:

mattikake said:

What you need to take into consideration with that vid is the commentators talking about Lewis' car being so much better on the brakes and on traction. It wasn't the car at all, it was Lewis and his Mansell-line driving style. This style is naturally impressive on brakes and acceleration. It was not the car.

Why do you keep refering to the "Mansell-line"? are you refering to racing line? Mansell style is similar to Vettel's, both oversteery, earlier turn-in than textbook and on the throttle early as possible; Hamilton is textbook late apex in oversteering/neutral car but ironically he has admitted he prefers a bit of understeer.

It seems you've been involved in this kind of conversation before:-

mattikake said:

ForSureFlippi] [posted in 2012 said:

“It used to upset Mario a bit because Nigel was quicker down the straightaway. Mansell was always quicker on the straightaway, even when we gave him some of the worst engines, and it was because he was able to straighten the car out by doing a lot of turning down in the middle of a corner so the car would come off really straight and the rpm would naturally be up because you weren’t scrubbing off any speed.”

Many PH'ers won't have a clue what I'm about to go on about, but I'm happy with that.

I call that the Mansell-line, because he's the one who seems to have invented/pioneered/developed it (not too sure exactly which, though I'd love it to be the foremost). Basically it's the natural conclusion of maxxed trail braking - to brake even later into the corner, have a tighter and lower apex speed, to straighten the corner out and have a faster exit speed due to being longer on the throttle. In terms of time it all balances out and is no faster than a regular line, except for a better exit speed.

Very few other drivers drive it, although it's very clear Matt Neal and Lewis Hamilton also do. I've seen Senna and Alan Jones adapt to it when required, but that is all I have noticed. Due to the nature of the entry and exit of corners, it makes overtaking much easier - the line in is a natural "dive", the low apex speed helps nullify turbulence and the high exit speed helps the draft.

There is a superb document on the net somewhere that explains this with some diagrams, but I'd rather it say pretty underground until Lewis has finished in F1. wink And for it to be really obvious, try having a look at LH's GP2 races.

Anyway, there are few drivers that can be credited with developing their own driving line (it's more than a style) that is used today because it appears to be the fastest way.

It does exist. It's finite and precise. It's a quicker way to drive. It's naturally more attacking. And no, I'm still not saying all until the end of Lewis' career in F1.

Vettel's style is not the same at all and it's also not dependent on the car - the Mansell line can be used in anything, not just a RBR F1 car.

[SuperDude]

RenOHH said:

Vettel is consistent, no one can dispute that.

Good points, well made.

I just don't think he could be relied on to carve the field up, should it be asked of him.

At least, not in the same way Button could. Or Webber. Yeah Hamilton has had his share of collisions, but who'd you pay to start from the back? Lewis or Seb? I'd employ Lewis over Seb every time.

I'm using first names... What a sycophant. Ha.

[Schermerhorn]

Hamilton has a car that is now 1 second faster than everyone else and all of a sudden he is the next Senna?

Vettel also enjoyed the same advantage in 2011 and latter part of 2013. Now that he is struggling or hasn't found the sweet spot on his car people are calling him over-rated? Let's not forget he obliterated Mark Webber - a very good and mentally strong driver - with ease over 4 years together.

[SuperDude]

Schermerhorn said:

Hamilton has a car that is now 1 second faster than everyone else and all of a sudden he is the next Senna?

Vettel also enjoyed the same advantage in 2011 and latter part of 2013. Now that he is struggling or hasn't found the sweet spot on his car people are calling him over-rated? Let's not forget he obliterated Mark Webber - a very good and mentally strong driver - with ease over 4 years together.

No offence or nuffin, but did you miss the entire thread before posting?

[superkartracer]

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2014/917/73...

Nico Rosberg - Avg Speed 195.450 Fastest Lap 1:40.402 Lap 39

Lewis Hamilton - Avg Speed 193.916 Fastest Lap 1:41.196 lap 42

Nico was driving blind the whole race having lost telemetry.

What position did Nico start the race?

Oh - http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/

^^ So not beating his teammate at the moment then.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 10:48

[Schermerhorn]

SuperDude said:

Schermerhorn said:

Hamilton has a car that is now 1 second faster than everyone else and all of a sudden he is the next Senna?

Vettel also enjoyed the same advantage in 2011 and latter part of 2013. Now that he is struggling or hasn't found the sweet spot on his car people are calling him over-rated? Let's not forget he obliterated Mark Webber - a very good and mentally strong driver - with ease over 4 years together.

No offence or nuffin, but did you miss the entire thread before posting?

I did not read the entire thread but the general feeling now is that Lewis Hamilton is now a super racing god that will destroy all before him. Well, in reality he should while he has the car advantage but he also has a very motivated team mate who he is shading but nothing like Schumi-Barrichello or Vettel-Webber.

[RichB]

Schermerhorn said:

SuperDude said:

Schermerhorn said:

Hamilton has a car that is now 1 second faster than everyone else and all of a sudden he is the next Senna?

Vettel also enjoyed the same advantage in 2011 and latter part of 2013. Now that he is struggling or hasn't found the sweet spot on his car people are calling him over-rated? Let's not forget he obliterated Mark Webber - a very good and mentally strong driver - with ease over 4 years together.

No offence or nuffin, but did you miss the entire thread before posting?

I did not read the entire thread but the general feeling now is that Lewis Hamilton is now a super racing god that will destroy all before him. Well, in reality he should while he has the car advantage but he also has a very motivated team mate who he is shading but nothing like Schumi-Barrichello or Vettel-Webber.

Do you mean your general feeling or the general feeling? Because if you mean the latter I disagree with you. People have felt Hamilton is a super racer since he started out in F1 (and before) it's not just since his car is faster than the rest of the field.

[longblackcoat]

superkartracer said:

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2014/917/73...

Nico Rosberg - Avg Speed 195.450 Fastest Lap 1:40.402 Lap 39

Lewis Hamilton - Avg Speed 193.916 Fastest Lap 1:41.196 lap 42

Nico was driving blind the whole race having lost telemetry.

What position did Nico start the race?

Oh - http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/

^^ So not beating his teammate at the moment then.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 10:48

He got pole, which Rosberg failed to do, with the same equipment. Nico started fourth because he didn't do as good a job on Saturday.

He finished 18 seconds ahead. And even Nico admitted that the only real problem with the telemetry going awol was for the clutch settings at the start.

Oh, and if Hamilton had used the same amount of fuel as Rosberg, rather than turning everything down and cruising, does anyone doubt that he'd have been a further 20-30 seconds ahead?

So yes, very definitely beating his teammate.

[superkartracer]

"It was zero data. It was like driving the car blind, and he was really doing an awesome job because he was giving us fuel consumption [information].

"Normally there is a switch that shows the state of the tyres - he was telling us where the tyres were with the best guess, and it lasted until the end of the race."

Rosberg was heard complaining over team radio that providing the fuel information was "annoying", but clarified that his concern was more the point on the track where he had to focus on it.

"I was completely on my own out there," he said. "I was telling the team what my fuel level was so that they could judge if I was using too much fuel or if I'm safe - and I had to do that in Turn 1 and Turn 1 is a difficult corner anyway, so I didn't enjoy that point.

"It was just once in a while so they could put a few dots and see where it's going, so that wasn't a problem at all, it was just that I didn't like where I had to do it because it was in Turn 1 and that was not good."

Considering the team had zero data on fuel/tires/temps 100's other things he did very well to be only 18 seconds behind, and like the data says faster then Lewis.

Edited by superkartracer on Thursday 24th April 12:14

[longblackcoat]

You said

superkartracer said:

^^ So not beating his teammate at the moment then.

Results say otherwise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/2014/results

[superkartracer]

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/

HTH

[RealSquirrels]

i think you're being a bit facetious, rosberg hasn't beaten his team mate in a race this year.

[Agent Orange]

superkartracer said:

"It was just once in a while so they could put a few dots and see where it's going, so that wasn't a problem at all...

Ignoring your quoting Nico as saying it wasn't a problem at all I don't buy that him being blind affected him that much.

They'd have had data from Hamilton's car and whilst not the same it'll give them the ball park. The Merc's are light on fuel so no fears in running out. The tyres are more durable this year and if a driver is unable to tell if his tyres are going he shouldn't be in F1.

Only issue they might have come across is they were blind to component failures and would have been unable to advise Nico to shift or brake early to save items.

He drove well coming from where he did - but then as you said earlier he should do his car is 1 second a lap quicker.

[superkartracer]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113595

Mercedes feared Nico Rosberg wouldn't finish so he was in a poor position and did well to get 2nd.

It seems only five minutes ago MSC was crap as Nico beat him a few times ( and Nico was a crap driver ) , Nico beat lewis last year a few times and will beat him again this year i'm sure ( he was also beaten by MSC who was old and crap.... clearly ), Nico had two wins to Lewis single win last year and some poor luck with the car ( more than Lewis )

Only a few races in... i'll come back in 20, it's all good fun.

[heebeegeetee]

superkartracer said:

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/

HTH

Are you saying that Nico has done a better job so far this year, and using this stat as evidence?

I have to say, imo there is something seriously wrong with the points system in the driver championship, at the moment.

[entropy]

Gaz. said:

Do you mean squaring off a corner?

AKA late apex. It's nothing new.

mattikake said:

entropy said:

mattikake said:

What you need to take into consideration with that vid is the commentators talking about Lewis' car being so much better on the brakes and on traction. It wasn't the car at all, it was Lewis and his Mansell-line driving style. This style is naturally impressive on brakes and acceleration. It was not the car.

Why do you keep refering to the "Mansell-line"? are you refering to racing line? Mansell style is similar to Vettel's, both oversteery, earlier turn-in than textbook and on the throttle early as possible; Hamilton is textbook late apex in oversteering/neutral car but ironically he has admitted he prefers a bit of understeer.

It seems you've been involved in this kind of conversation before:-

mattikake said:

ForSureFlippi] [posted in 2012 said:

“It used to upset Mario a bit because Nigel was quicker down the straightaway. Mansell was always quicker on the straightaway, even when we gave him some of the worst engines, and it was because he was able to straighten the car out by doing a lot of turning down in the middle of a corner so the car would come off really straight and the rpm would naturally be up because you weren’t scrubbing off any speed.”

Many PH'ers won't have a clue what I'm about to go on about, but I'm happy with that.

I call that the Mansell-line, because he's the one who seems to have invented/pioneered/developed it (not too sure exactly which, though I'd love it to be the foremost). Basically it's the natural conclusion of maxxed trail braking - to brake even later into the corner, have a tighter and lower apex speed, to straighten the corner out and have a faster exit speed due to being longer on the throttle. In terms of time it all balances out and is no faster than a regular line, except for a better exit speed.

Very few other drivers drive it, although it's very clear Matt Neal and Lewis Hamilton also do. I've seen Senna and Alan Jones adapt to it when required, but that is all I have noticed. Due to the nature of the entry and exit of corners, it makes overtaking much easier - the line in is a natural "dive", the low apex speed helps nullify turbulence and the high exit speed helps the draft.

There is a superb document on the net somewhere that explains this with some diagrams, but I'd rather it say pretty underground until Lewis has finished in F1. wink And for it to be really obvious, try having a look at LH's GP2 races.

Anyway, there are few drivers that can be credited with developing their own driving line (it's more than a style) that is used today because it appears to be the fastest way.

It does exist. It's finite and precise. It's a quicker way to drive. It's naturally more attacking. And no, I'm still not saying all until the end of Lewis' career in F1.

Vettel's style is not the same at all and it's also not dependent on the car - the Mansell line can be used in anything, not just a RBR F1 car.

I'm sure the quote about upsetting Mario referred to oval racing from an article/blog by Gordon Kirby. Motorsport magazine's site is down at the moment so can't verify it.

In oval racing you run a high line/groove or run low/late apex if you have a loose AKA oversteery car because on an oval steering is very, very sensitive. That's why he had his massive shunt at Phoenix because he tried to use his conventional early turn-in.

From Nigel Mansell's autobiography, p.33 hardback edition:

"My style is to brake hard and late and turn in very early to the apex of the corner, carrying a lot of speed with me. I then slow the car down again in the corner and drive out of it. Because I go for the early apex, I probably use less road than many other drivers. In fact if you put a dripping paint pot on the back of my car and on the back of another driver's car around a lap of a circuit like Monaco, you would probably find that my lap is 20 30 metres shorter than theirs"

"To drive like this I need a car that has a very responsive front end and turns in immediately and doesn't slide at the front"