F1 engine note - Why all the haters?
Discussion
Scuffers said:
toppstuff said:
Renault, Mercedes and Honda have all made it clear that they are only committed to F1 because the sport involves technology they want to develop and ultimately showcase for future use in passenger cars.
this keeps getting trotted out but I just don't believe it.yes, the F1 reps of said companies might well say that, but if you think about it, that's their job.
as for showcasing the tech for road cars, as has been said MORE THAN A FEW TIMES, road cars are already well ahead of what F1 had now.
rad cars requirements are also somewhat different to race car, just how much time does your typical road car run at WOT? how is turbo compounding going to help much on a road car? (it almost has a place on long-haul big trucks, but even that is marginal).
Given that F1 needs the manufacturers and their deep pockets, if they wanted cheap engines they would have said so. They say they wanted to develop technology more in turn with their business direction, and they have backed this with their investment. If they wanted to simply throw some cheap V8's in the back they would have said so.
Honda and MB are very specific as going on record that this is what they want. Honda made it absolutely clear that hybrid electric is the only reason they have returned and MB have also stated that if leccy hybrids had not come in they probably wouldn't have stayed.
toppstuff said:
Given that F1 needs the manufacturers and their deep pockets...
I don't agree. I'd much rather see a sport where Williams, McLaren, Ferrari (who aren't interested in volume sales or fuel economy), Sauber, Red Bull, Force India, Lotus, Caterham, Marussia etc raced (using stock engines if neccessary, which the current engines will be anyway when the performance allowed by the regulations have been maxed out) than the current pandering to manufacturers need to sell boring road cars. There are plenty of sponsors out there who have no motoring base at all, and plenty of sponsors from the motor industry who aren't associated with hybrid, fuel efficient (which they aren't anyway) engines. So what if we lose Mercedes and Renault, who cares?
toppstuff said:
That makes no sense.
Given that F1 needs the manufacturers and their deep pockets, if they wanted cheap engines they would have said so. They say they wanted to develop technology more in turn with their business direction, and they have backed this with their investment. If they wanted to simply throw some cheap V8's in the back they would have said so.
Honda and MB are very specific as going on record that this is what they want. Honda made it absolutely clear that hybrid electric is the only reason they have returned and MB have also stated that if leccy hybrids had not come in they probably wouldn't have stayed.
like I said, the people saying this are the ones who's divisions rely on it.Given that F1 needs the manufacturers and their deep pockets, if they wanted cheap engines they would have said so. They say they wanted to develop technology more in turn with their business direction, and they have backed this with their investment. If they wanted to simply throw some cheap V8's in the back they would have said so.
Honda and MB are very specific as going on record that this is what they want. Honda made it absolutely clear that hybrid electric is the only reason they have returned and MB have also stated that if leccy hybrids had not come in they probably wouldn't have stayed.
may I point out that Honda supply engines to IRL, they don't have fancy hybrid systems, yet Honda have not quit, neither have the other manufacturers (of engines)
Look, the current spending levels (on engines) are unsustainable, Renault are already crying (and asking for more money from their customers), I can see them dropping out soon if things don't pick up fast, with Honda coming in, and the likelihood of them doing a better job than Renault, I can't see how Renaut can survive.
what you also seem to have totally ignored is that not one single part of these hybrid systems are in common with anything used on road cars, road cars do not require the same energy conversion rates, charge/discharge speeds, etc etc of an F1 car, the goal posts are poles apart.
then we get to the IC engines themselves, they are crap compared to current road car engines (in tech terms), no Variable geometry turbo's, no variable cam control, fixed bore/stroke/geometry around some arbitrary regulations etc.
where's the innovation that could possibly trickle down to road cars?
and just to cover John's point, turbo development of road cars has zero in common with F1 turbo era of the past, most of the advances in (petrol) turbo tech are much more recent than that and revolve around materials and manufacture.
RobGT81 said:
zac510 said:
Same old argument trotted out by Scuffers and RYH64E, I don't believe it.
Well, which part of the current "power train" do you believe is going to find its way to road cars? Considering it all exists in the road car and heavy duty world already. Is it not reasonable to assume that if a car maker is spending billions on hybrid and EV tech already , they want their race car programmes to reflect this? In fact, it seems that NOT having hybrid and EV tech in race cars would mean that they are inconsistent with their business overall going forward.
RobGT81 said:
Well, which part of the current "power train" do you believe is going to find its way to road cars? Considering it all exists in the road car and heavy duty world already.
I don't believe any one object will reach into the road car world. To think of only what is only there now is too simplistic and naive view of a world which is very dynamic. What will reach are evolutions of the current technology, for example improvements in battery size/weight per mass, or improvement in motor technology that will bring a reduced friction losses or motor weight. These are all improvements that are badly needed in the road car world.
Further, investing in researching and developing these technologies might breed new ideas that we punters haven't even thought of. This can be lobbied to be added into the rules or a loophole used (and we've seen this a lot most recently in F1 with various suspension changes).
Aside, I think that complaining about the costs and complexity of the engine is just a cover for dislike of the noise.
zac510 said:
RobGT81 said:
Well, which part of the current "power train" do you believe is going to find its way to road cars? Considering it all exists in the road car and heavy duty world already.
I don't believe any one object will reach into the road car world. To think of only what is only there now is too simplistic and naive view of a world which is very dynamic. What will reach are evolutions of the current technology, for example improvements in battery size/weight per mass, or improvement in motor technology that will bring a reduced friction losses or motor weight. These are all improvements that are badly needed in the road car world.
the requirements for an F1 cars hybrid system have almost nothing in common with a road car.
let's start with turbo compounding, it's hardly new for starters, and only really works on engines with high/fixed duty cycles, ie. aero, industrial, etc.
road cars do not work at WOT (or fixed highish workload) for any significant time, so zero benefit there.
Hybrid road cars are all about storing energy to use later, F1 is about very high charge/discharge cycles every lap, so whilst an F1 cars battery is designed to be as small/light as possible and has to be cooled to stop it going bang, a road cars will not be operating in anything like the same fashion.
then we get back to the IC engines themselves, what's new and cutting edge about them that's not already well known/used/etc?
Lastly, what mandate has F1 as a sport got to develop stuff for road cars?
I don't think my points are too far-fetched or unreasonable.
Scuffers said:
Lastly, what mandate has F1 as a sport got to develop stuff for road cars?
I guess it's a capitalist economy and at least partly democratic; he who invests the money can decide the direction and rules (that is, the engine manufacturers).
We are here at Stowe and you simply cannot hear the cars coming down hangar straight. They seem even quieter live than on TV. For me and IMHO this is not what I want from the pinnacle of motorsport. Even with 4 or 5 cars together you can have a conversation it is that quiet. After 20 years of coming I think this is the last unless they do something about it.
paulg390 said:
We are here at Stowe and you simply cannot hear the cars coming down hangar straight. They seem even quieter live than on TV. For me and IMHO this is not what I want from the pinnacle of motorsport. Even with 4 or 5 cars together you can have a conversation it is that quiet. After 20 years of coming I think this is the last unless they do something about it.
At the Spanish GP I thought they sounded just fine.I guess one of the problems with Silverstone is that the course is a lot more open and there is a lot wind, so the sound can get carried away if you aren't sitting in the right place.
Personally, I don't care about it. I like it that the cars are more of a handful now , in spite of them being quieter.
Could be worse... 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28144411
FWIW I was at Silverstone for the GP in 2008, in the stand (standing) just before Copse. It was loud, but not to the extent it needed earplugs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28144411
FWIW I was at Silverstone for the GP in 2008, in the stand (standing) just before Copse. It was loud, but not to the extent it needed earplugs.
MarkRSi said:
BBC said:
Drivers who get the most support on social media will get a temporary power boost
There aren't enough rolleyes in the world to respond to this particular bit of muppetry. Obviously success in a racing championship should be decided by Facebook morons clicking "Like" rather than than the talent and dedication of the race team.I, too, heard them for the first time today. My only complaint would be the volume; however, to increase the volume (of the exhaust) would result in the loss of the other sounds from the ERS, etc. I like the complex sound of the current cars - if the overall volume could be increased whilst retaining the sound balance it'd be ideal.
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