The Official German GP Thread 2014 *******Spoilers*****

The Official German GP Thread 2014 *******Spoilers*****

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Discussion

IainT

10,040 posts

237 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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THX said:
Just as well everyone contributing to this thread are proven st hot racing drivers, capable of navigating a Formula 1 car through 60 laps whilst managing the tyres and fighting through traffic...

Otherwise you'd think it full of gobstes.
It's posts like this that raise the quality of discussion around here.

THX

2,348 posts

121 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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IainT said:
It's posts like this that raise the quality of discussion around here.
You're right.

Perhaps I shouldn't have.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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Hungrymc said:
Clevers said:
.

Of course it wasn't a conspiracy to not bring out the safety car, but was it in Charlie's mind about how much st he might get if his intervention altered the outcome of a race that Rosberg had in the bag on home soil? I am sure the outspoken Lauda would have had something to say.
That sound a very plausible explanation to me.
Consider this:~

When the car first span, it looked like the driver would recover and continue. He quickly moved car away from the racing line and looked set to resume. OK, so no big deal. No need for SC action. Decision taken. Often happens that way. Yellow flags should sort it.

Then apparently engine stalled so dead car whilst on the track unable to continue as now not on the obvious racing line. By that time, several cars had already raced past the stranded car at speed without incident.

Still, love a conspiracy. Really dulls things up.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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Scuffers said:
ash73 said:
Dave_newcastle said:
Perhaps pitting when they did was a gamble of a near certain second for a significant upside chance of first?
It wasn't a gamble at all; no safety car was an outlier. But I think it was the right result overall, Lewis didn't deserve a victory after banging wheels with Jenson and Kimi, imho.

How would people react if Massa or Maldonado had locked up like that...?
the difference is that he did not take anybody out.

Jenson was in part, his own fault (he should have seen it coming and either shut the door or not turned in), and kimi was just as much into the move as lewis was.

it's called racing, you don't wait for the written invite...
He who does not go for a gap is not a racing driver ...

The above has proven to be the recipe for numerous DNFs and NIL points for both driver and team, often with a hefty F1 car repair bill. Then there's another negative bonus. Sometimes injury even with the sanitised circuits and strong cars of today.

More than one driver got lucky on Sunday.

... and another thing. What percentage of Massa's mishaps this season were due to Massa self-inflicted errors?

Discuss ... Only asking like ... wink

Who said 100% ? rolleyes


MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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toppstuff said:
I read that Massa is still blaming Magnussen for the incident.

He really is a daft plum. It was at worst a racing incident ( which was the stewards view ) but I think that if any blame is to be apportioned it is to Massa.

He's turning into Captain Calamity.
Captain Calamity! How drole.

If so bottom stuff toppstuff. Just saying ... wink

Yes, good pictures of the racing incident.

Second thoughts. Is that really how simply you see it toppstuff with Massa entirely to blame? If only things were ever that simple. It isn't and the Stewards' decision is final and almost certainly the correct one.

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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MGJohn said:
Captain Calamity! How drole.

If so bottom stuff toppstuff. Just saying ... wink

Yes, good pictures of the racing incident.

Second thoughts. Is that really how simply you see it toppstuff with Massa entirely to blame? If only things were ever that simple. It isn't and the Stewards' decision is final and almost certainly the correct one.
I'm not saying Massa is entirely to blame but he is pretty clumsy.

At Silverstone he crashed the Williams in practice. A year ago he did exactly the same thing in his Ferrari in precisely the same place.

If he came to my house for a cuppa I wouldn't get the nice cups out. He's having the old chipped mugs. Let's put it that way.

He is a bit awkward. Clumsy. And it's not just bad luck IMO.

vonuber

17,868 posts

164 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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Regarding Massa, just to point out that if Alonso hadn't decide to indulge in one of the worst incidents of cheating F1 has seen, he probably would have been World Champion, with Hamilton still chasing one.
Ifs and buts of course, but it shows he has the stuff.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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vonuber said:
Regarding Massa, just to point out that if Alonso hadn't decide to indulge in one of the worst incidents of cheating F1 has seen, he probably would have been World Champion, with Hamilton still chasing one.
Ifs and buts of course, but it shows he has the stuff.
Yes, ifs and buts to say the least.

Massa had a spell when, if he got away from the front row, he could win and came close to a championship. I cannot recall a single race where he has won or even been on the podium after having a tough race from further back. I stand to be corrected. Most champions can do that.


Clevers

1,171 posts

200 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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MGJohn said:
Hungrymc said:
Clevers said:
.

Of course it wasn't a conspiracy to not bring out the safety car, but was it in Charlie's mind about how much st he might get if his intervention altered the outcome of a race that Rosberg had in the bag on home soil? I am sure the outspoken Lauda would have had something to say.
That sound a very plausible explanation to me.
Consider this:~

When the car first span, it looked like the driver would recover and continue. He quickly moved car away from the racing line and looked set to resume. OK, so no big deal. No need for SC action. Decision taken. Often happens that way. Yellow flags should sort it.

Then apparently engine stalled so dead car whilst on the track unable to continue as now not on the obvious racing line. By that time, several cars had already raced past the stranded car at speed without incident.

Still, love a conspiracy. Really dulls things up.
Seriously, not even the hint of a suggestion of conspiracy, but CW did get soooo much ste after the armco incident at Silverstone, i just wonder if it was part of his thought process to try and resist the temptation to intervene with a safety car if at all possible given all the previous comments. On the face of it he looks to have a made a brave decision not panic and bring out the SC and the decision didn't back fire and was in the interests of the racing. Plus it would have been unfair on Rosberg. These considerations must go through his mind when making the call.


anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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Fair or unfair has no place in making decisions about when the SC comes out. The only question should be is it required to make certain the safety of the marshals and drivers.

I don't recall seeing marshals running across a live circuit on the exit of a fast corner for a very very long time. Why is that? because it's bloody dangerous. You also had the sight of marshals walking up an active narrow pit lane in the braking zone for any car entering the pits, again not something you see these days.

It was a very unusual decision these days IMHO.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
ash73 said:
MGJohn said:
What percentage of Massa's mishaps this season were due to Massa self-inflicted errors?
Massa has a bad habit of turning in on people, imo. The way to deal with it is ensure you are wheel to wheel, not wheel to carbon fibre. No fault of Magnussen but he's probably learned that lesson now.
Magnussen was at least 50% to blame. He was far better placed to see what could happen and adjust his actions accordingly. The Stewards appear to have seen it as at least a 50-50 racing incident so based on that, decided no action against either.

I'm a McLaren fan and was disappointed with what happened to the car from fourth on the grid. He was far better placed than Massa to see and take positive action. At one point soon after the start, with Bottas a tad slowly away, Massa nosed in front of his younger team mate. Bottas' poor start flattered Magnussen's ordinary one.

OTOH, many drivers, Hamilton included who have a very bad habit of going for a gap that will not be there when they arrive. Although to be fair to Lewis, there is increasing evidence he has addressed that in recent seasons. Correlates to his dispensing with that all yellow helmet. Now he needs to purge completely his habit of believing what someone once said :~

"Anyone who does not go for a gap is not a racing driver." Because that is bks.

Had he changed tack much earlier in his career, he would surely have more than just that very lucky single WDC which Massa and family thought was their's for a few brief moments. Mind you, them's the breaks and I doubt many cheered louder than I when Lewis lucked out then ... thumbup

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
ash73 said:
Massa has a bad habit of turning in on people, imo.
He's been doing it for years. Some of the many crashes he had with Hamilton in 2011 were similar to his incident with Magnussen. He's now been quoted on espn F1 basically saying it was ALL Magnussen's fault.

e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6RS5lchZXo

Opens the door. Shuts the door. Most other drivers would position themselves inside to defend, but not Massa, he owns the track.


Clevers

1,171 posts

200 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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jsf said:
Fair or unfair has no place in making decisions about when the SC comes out. The only question should be is it required to make certain the safety of the marshals and drivers.

I don't recall seeing marshals running across a live circuit on the exit of a fast corner for a very very long time. Why is that? because it's bloody dangerous. You also had the sight of marshals walking up an active narrow pit lane in the braking zone for any car entering the pits, again not something you see these days.

It was a very unusual decision these days IMHO.
Agreed - as I said I think what happened at Silverstone may have been a factor.

lord summerisle

8,138 posts

224 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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garycat said:
Yeah, especially as the car seemed to be stuck in gear so I was expecting it to be craned out of the way. It's odd that the marshals were able to put it in neutral but Sutil couldn't.
There is a button on the top of the nose, just in front of the steering wheel which can be pressed by a marshal (once the car is showing a safe reading) which will disengage the clutch - this overrides the internal system, doesnt always work (like with rosbergs car at silverstone)

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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MGJohn said:


LH would do much better if he followed my advice. [Paraphrasing]
Three points:

1/ Another way of reading:

"Anyone who does not go for a gap is not a racing driver."

is that if you allow opportunities to pass, you are not likely to be successful. If there's a gap, it's a gap. Hardly any form of deleted expletive. Good sense there.

I had an English teacher who had in his classroom an aphorism on the wall which read: Grab opportunities with both hands and hold on tight. You might fail, but you'll never forgive yourself for not trying. Excellent advice and I wish I had had the sense to follow it.

Another term for going for a gap is racing.

2/ Further, I'm not sure how changing tack earlier wold have improved the quality of his car. The reason he didn't get any more championships is because he was driving a dog and as such, had to go for every chance he could.

And, saving the best for last,

3/ Very lucky WDC. Come on! He had an excellent year. He made a few mistakes which made him just like everyone else on the grid. Hardly lucky. That's a travesty of what actually happened.

Why don't other drivers attract such unfounded criticisms? I'd like to defend other entertaining drivers for a change.

IainT

10,040 posts

237 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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MGJohn said:
Bottas' poor start flattered Magnussen's ordinary one.
Yet he was alongside Massa on corner entry. I have little doubt that the stewards would have made a different call had the incident happened at any other time than the start of the race, one which would have seen Massa at fault. Given the circumstances at the start though the stewards almost always give the benefit of doubt and offer more leeway due to the chaotic nature of that phase of the race.

Speedy11

516 posts

207 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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Derek Smith said:
3/ Very lucky WDC. Come on! He had an excellent year. He made a few mistakes which made him just like everyone else on the grid. Hardly lucky. That's a travesty of what actually happened.

Why don't other drivers attract such unfounded criticisms? I'd like to defend other entertaining drivers for a change.
To be fair Lewis was very lucky to win the WDC as the FIA did their best to help Massa ie SPA, Fuji etc

biggrin

Likes Fast Cars

2,769 posts

164 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
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Speedy11 said:
Derek Smith said:
3/ Very lucky WDC. Come on! He had an excellent year. He made a few mistakes which made him just like everyone else on the grid. Hardly lucky. That's a travesty of what actually happened.

Why don't other drivers attract such unfounded criticisms? I'd like to defend other entertaining drivers for a change.
To be fair Lewis was very lucky to win the WDC as the FIA did their best to help Massa ie SPA, Fuji etc

biggrin
And he was very unlucky not to win it in 2007 in his debut year.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
vonuber said:
Regarding Massa, just to point out that if Alonso hadn't decide to indulge in one of the worst incidents of cheating F1 has seen, he probably would have been World Champion, with Hamilton still chasing one.
Ifs and buts of course, but it shows he has the stuff.
Yes, ifs and buts to say the least.

Massa had a spell when, if he got away from the front row, he could win and came close to a championship. I cannot recall a single race where he has won or even been on the podium after having a tough race from further back. I stand to be corrected. Most champions can do that.
That was Massa's best & only opportunity - Hamilton lucked it for his 1st, but will the 2nd elude him?

lord summerisle

8,138 posts

224 months

Wednesday 23rd July 2014
quotequote all
jsf said:
Fair or unfair has no place in making decisions about when the SC comes out. The only question should be is it required to make certain the safety of the marshals and drivers.

I don't recall seeing marshals running across a live circuit on the exit of a fast corner for a very very long time. Why is that? because it's bloody dangerous. You also had the sight of marshals walking up an active narrow pit lane in the braking zone for any car entering the pits, again not something you see these days.

It was a very unusual decision these days IMHO.
I do wonder if the decision would have been the same to not deploy the safety car at the sandy tracks, or the far east tracks.

Germany, UK, Belgium, Italy etc - the marshals on track are some of the most experienced marshals around (for instance most Marshals at Silverstone will have been marshalling for several years and will have been to hundreds of race meetings and know what they can and cant do to deal with an incident) The guys on the ground making the decision would be in radio contact with Race Control who car see it on the circuit CCTV - between them they'll make their recommendation if they can clear it with or without SC. RC can always overrule the request tho.

Where has at Singapore, China etc. the marshals trackside are far more inexperienced - often Friday Free Practice 1 is the first session they will have ever been trackside for