Should the Russian GP Go Ahead?
Poll: Should the Russian GP Go Ahead?
Total Members Polled: 347
Discussion
RemarkLima said:
I'm not denying anything, and I really do not know all the facts, but the general consensus appears to be that the US, UK and Europe are honest and up front with all the details, which history has shown a million times not to be the case... Equally the case for Russia.
It seems to be every appears to be squarely fingering the blame at Russia directly, and happily gloss over how many arms and munitions the UK has supplied over the years. If it's just arms supply then we're as guilty as Russia.
Malaysia hasn't really proven itself a great communicator with MH317... So, I hope they've learnt from the obfusication and tardiness with that one to be a bit more transparent.
Anyway, off to work - I'm not a tin foil hatted nutter, but you're all welcome to think so. The truth will come out I hope, but history shows there two side to everything.
ETA : http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-qu... (Russian state media I appreciate)
ha ha ha - using Russia Today as a source, funny guy. It seems to be every appears to be squarely fingering the blame at Russia directly, and happily gloss over how many arms and munitions the UK has supplied over the years. If it's just arms supply then we're as guilty as Russia.
Malaysia hasn't really proven itself a great communicator with MH317... So, I hope they've learnt from the obfusication and tardiness with that one to be a bit more transparent.
Anyway, off to work - I'm not a tin foil hatted nutter, but you're all welcome to think so. The truth will come out I hope, but history shows there two side to everything.
ETA : http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-qu... (Russian state media I appreciate)
The plane was hit by a SA-11 missile fired from Torez a town held by the separatists.
Beyond that - it's all just bulls
t. Honestly why would Ukraine be deploying surface to air missile batteries in enemy territory when the separatists don't have any aircraft?
Take the tin foil hat off and accept that this one isn't all that ambiguous.
Slurms said:
ha ha ha - using Russia Today as a source, funny guy.
The plane was hit by a SA-11 missile fired from Torez a town held by the separatists.
Beyond that - it's all just bullst.
Honestly why would Ukraine be deploying surface to air missile batteries in enemy territory when the separatists don't have any aircraft?
Take the tin foil hat off and accept that this one isn't all that ambiguous.
To make people hate the separatists and increase their support/weapons/funding?The plane was hit by a SA-11 missile fired from Torez a town held by the separatists.
Beyond that - it's all just bulls
t. Honestly why would Ukraine be deploying surface to air missile batteries in enemy territory when the separatists don't have any aircraft?
Take the tin foil hat off and accept that this one isn't all that ambiguous.
I have no idea who did it but Ukraine have a lot to gain if people think it was the separatists.
Slurms said:
ha ha ha - using Russia Today as a source, funny guy.
The plane was hit by a SA-11 missile fired from Torez a town held by the separatists.
Beyond that - it's all just bullst.
Honestly why would Ukraine be deploying surface to air missile batteries in enemy territory when the separatists don't have any aircraft?
Take the tin foil hat off and accept that this one isn't all that ambiguous.
OK, I'll concede the point... It would seem only history will reveal the full truth, maybe. I've read up the latest news and will bow my head to the latest information, but will still await the investigators final verdict from the crash site and the black boxes.The plane was hit by a SA-11 missile fired from Torez a town held by the separatists.
Beyond that - it's all just bulls
t. Honestly why would Ukraine be deploying surface to air missile batteries in enemy territory when the separatists don't have any aircraft?
Take the tin foil hat off and accept that this one isn't all that ambiguous.
I guess the problem with supplying arms being synonymous with guilt means everyone is guilty...
Eric Mc said:
I hope you don't include the 298 people aboard MH017 in your "everyone is guilty" claim.
Ouch, really. Of course not, just because I'm not judging anything until the facts arrive does not mean I do not care for those that have lost their life over someone else's conflict, and those that will feel the loss for a long time. I can only imagine the hell their families are currently going through.You do know what I mean, and it's not very pleasant to twist it like that. But to be explicit, the UK, the USofA, and most of western Europe have supplied arms, munitions and chemicals to rebels, separatists, tin pot dictators, usurpers and it would seem anyone else with enough cash - they have then marched on to commit atrocities, genocide and slaughter. Only when the world stops to look do they (we, the UK) suddenly place trade sanctions to prevent any further supply, and distance themselves.
So when I say "Everyone is guilty", I mean "Every government and company who has supplied arms, munitions and chemicals to regimes that have used said supplies to slaughter in the name of what cause is their current modus operandi, is guilty".
I hope that clears my position, and that I'm not condemning innocent lives in the name of someone else's war. As their classical world know all too well "The first casualty of war is the truth".
Many governments have done things they shouldn't.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
"All the evidence" will never be in regarding this case because it certainly looks like an awful lot of the evidence will have been damaged, destroyed and tampered with before the people who SHOULD be accessing the site are allowed in.
In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
"All the evidence" will never be in regarding this case because it certainly looks like an awful lot of the evidence will have been damaged, destroyed and tampered with before the people who SHOULD be accessing the site are allowed in.
In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
Eric Mc said:
Many governments have done things they shouldn't.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
OK, I get it, I'm wrong, you're right. Western governments are trying to be good all the time and just occasionally get blinded by greed, Russia is just evil all the time and wants to destroy the West. Right ho.
My opinion is, they are all corrupted, run solely by megalomaniacs by the very definition of a representative democracy, who are more interested in self gratification than doing the right thing, it just fortuitous that the two sometimes align. It's only my opinion, still I'll expect you'll probably just tell me how wrong it is.
Eric Mc said:
"All the evidence" will never be in regarding this case because it certainly looks like an awful lot of the evidence will have been damaged, destroyed and tampered with before the people who SHOULD be accessing the site are allowed in.
In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
I do agree that the rebels behaviour has been shocking and does nothing to help anyone with this, and loses them any credibility they may have had. In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
RemarkLima said:
Eric Mc said:
Many governments have done things they shouldn't.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
However, do not then assume that EVERYTHING they say and do is tainted and corrupt. Now and then, governments do say and do the right thing.
OK, I get it, I'm wrong, you're right. Western governments are trying to be good all the time and just occasionally get blinded by greed, Russia is just evil all the time and wants to destroy the West. Right ho.
My opinion is, they are all corrupted, run solely by megalomaniacs by the very definition of a representative democracy, who are more interested in self gratification than doing the right thing, it just fortuitous that the two sometimes align. It's only my opinion, still I'll expect you'll probably just tell me how wrong it is.
Eric Mc said:
"All the evidence" will never be in regarding this case because it certainly looks like an awful lot of the evidence will have been damaged, destroyed and tampered with before the people who SHOULD be accessing the site are allowed in.
In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
I do agree that the rebels behaviour has been shocking and does nothing to help anyone with this, and loses them any credibility they may have had. In fact, the behaviour of the rebel fighters in this regard is nothing short of disgraceful. Aviation experts are usually on site carrying out their examination of the wreckage within 24 hours of a crash. We are now almost a week into this incident and not one aviation crash investigator has been allowed near the site.
Truly, truly shocking.
You obviously are disenamoured with the whole concept of government.
I prefer to go with an Abraham Lincoln style view - some are corrupt and bad all the time, some (very few) are corrupt and bad none of the time, but most are corrupt and bad some of the time.
Governments do decent things sometimes.
Jawaman said:
So most likely scenario there is merc race a car minus Petronas logos (would Petronas have to foot the bill for change of livery?)
IIRC Vodaphone were very reluctant to have their name on the side of the car at Bahrain. One editorial I read suggested that it was contractually obliged to and that it was a significant part of their decision to withdraw from F1. In the end they put a local subsidiary brand's name on the car.ETA: Pic
Edited by suffolk009 on Wednesday 23 July 07:57
Eric Mc said:
Your generalisations seem awfully sweeping. You obviously think that every single government that ever existed in every country was or is essentially corrupt and untrustworthy.
You obviously are disenamoured with the whole concept of government.
I prefer to go with an Abraham Lincoln style view - some are corrupt and bad all the time, some (very few) are corrupt and bad none of the time, but most are corrupt and bad some of the time.
Governments do decent things sometimes.
Pretty much sums it up I think. The fact that people who want power are given power (as they're the only ones clawing their way to the top) is a huge part of the problem, very few will have integrity, or the process of getting there will erode the values and ideals that they started with.You obviously are disenamoured with the whole concept of government.
I prefer to go with an Abraham Lincoln style view - some are corrupt and bad all the time, some (very few) are corrupt and bad none of the time, but most are corrupt and bad some of the time.
Governments do decent things sometimes.
There a very tiny number of notable exceptions, but sadly I feel they're the exception to prove the rule, and their efforts are usually a drop in the ocean.
All you have to do is look at the disparity of wealth, the suffering, the starvation, the disease, the disenfranchised and the disposed... Then look back over the past 4000 years and see that absolutely nothing has really changed - sure the technology has moved on, but the powerful have always oppressed the weak and the governments largely just appear to be proxy for this.
Cynical maybe, but history just keeps repeating, and so many mistakes could be avoided, and the quality of life could be improved for so many more if the governments genuinely worked for the citizens, and didn't feel that they should rule their citizens.
Aye, but what a wonderful world it could be... And don't get me wrong, the world is a wonderful place, with amazing places and constant surprises, and on the whole people are very kind and caring, but it could just be so much better, for so many more. I do count my stars to be born into a wealthy powerful country, and the vast benefits that brings, but even here life isn't so sweet for many, so the oppressed countries stand even less of a chance to improve their lot.
Joe Saward pretty clear in his view as ever
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/wisdom-a...
Sadly, I have no doubts that the race will go ahead, even if it was this weekend. As Joe points out, there's 60 million reasons why it will always go ahead, not to mention F1's relentless search for foreign investment in teams etc.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/wisdom-a...
Sadly, I have no doubts that the race will go ahead, even if it was this weekend. As Joe points out, there's 60 million reasons why it will always go ahead, not to mention F1's relentless search for foreign investment in teams etc.
Thanks for posting the article...
Joe Saward said:
The problem with Russia (or most modern conflicts come to that) is that it is hard to know who to believe. We in the West are told that Ukrainian separatists with Russian missiles shot down the unfortunate Malaysian airliner. The other day In Hockenheim I had a discussion with a Russian colleague who fervently believes that the plane was shot down by the CIA, which he believes now runs the Ukraine government, because America wants to get a war going in Europe to weaken its economic rivals. This is not a stupid man, nor one who has not seen the world. His views are coloured perhaps by a period reporting in the Balkan wars. We went on to discuss whether it is really possible for either of us to know the truth. There is too much in history of governments doing bad stuff to get what they want. In the end, we shrugged and went our separate ways. I still tend to believe what I have read in the western press and I am sure he still believes what the Russian media is telling him.
Tin foil hats all round then?Bernie tends to work on the "it's easier to seek forgiveness than ask permission" approach.
Do as you like and then "manage" the fallout afterwards.
It's the most profitable approach.
Not that the money matters to him anymore, it's just about winning now.
Maybe he plans on making his horror of a daughter the richest woman in the World.
Do as you like and then "manage" the fallout afterwards.
It's the most profitable approach.
Not that the money matters to him anymore, it's just about winning now.
Maybe he plans on making his horror of a daughter the richest woman in the World.
Edited by longshot on Thursday 24th July 11:12
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